Westland Whirlibomber Colours

Looking at the photos in Stu’s posting it’s difficult to tell if the upper surface is black outside of the stripes or not, but if forced I would say not.

Very interesting.

Steve

In absence of evidence from the photos I would strongly suggest that the roundels were over-painted and the wingtips outboard of the stripes were Night (black).

Appendix ‘F’ to the Air Force Operation Order for ‘Starkey’ states that taking a datum line around the airfoil section where it measures 5 feet, outboard of this line was to be covered with Distemper Night. Inboard of the datum was to be marked alternatively with two white and two black stripes (18″ wide on single-engined fighters, 24″ on twins), using Distemper White and Distemper Night. There is no mention of leaving the national markings and the diagrams clearly show the stripes covering the area where the roundels would be.

The nose on twin-engined aircraft was to be Distemper White, extending 5 feet 6 inches back from the nodse-tip but not covering any perpex panels.

Supplies of the distemper were available from 7 MU Quedgely and 70 MU Woodcote.

Hi
Many thanks for the official order. 🙂
Looking at the photo, it could well be black outboard of the upperwing stripes, always hard to tell on 40’s b/w prints.
I just need to find the info on the order for Op Rutter… 🙂
cheers
Jerry

In absence of evidence from the photos I would strongly suggest that the roundels were over-painted and the wingtips outboard of the stripes were Night (black).

Appendix ‘F’ to the Air Force Operation Order for ‘Starkey’ states that taking a datum line around the airfoil section where it measures 5 feet, outboard of this line was to be covered with Distemper Night. Inboard of the datum was to be marked alternatively with two white and two black stripes (18″ wide on single-engined fighters, 24″ on twins), using Distemper White and Distemper Night. There is no mention of leaving the national markings and the diagrams clearly show the stripes covering the area where the roundels would be.

The nose on twin-engined aircraft was to be Distemper White, extending 5 feet 6 inches back from the nodse-tip but not covering any perpex panels.

Supplies of the distemper were available from 7 MU Quedgely and 70 MU Woodcote.

Hi Jerry,

Yes that would seem a sensible action, as the aim for the scheme seems to have been to remove the wing roundels.

Edit: Just zoomed right in to the Starkey graphic and I reckon you can see a couple of pixels of blue outside the white bands.

Fancy posting any of the photos?

All the best,

Steve.

Hi Steve
Pm sent
cheers
jerry

Hi Steve,
From the only three photos I have seen,
Only one photo shows the uppersurfaces of HE-X, view is from port aft about 15 deg view, it is hard to work out,but there doesn’t seem to be any wing roundels.
The other part is HE-Z, view from starboard front undersurfaces, again about the 15deg angle, it doesn’t seem to have any wing roundels.
Both a/c have the fuselage roundels and fin flash, HE-X has a well worn fuselage tail band.
As only a small portion ( 15% ? ) of the type ‘B’ roundel on the upper wing would be visible, My bet would be that the outer white stripe was ‘widdened’ to cover the roundel.
I think the ‘4+’ and ‘warpaint’ profiles aren’t quite right in showing roundels
Cheers
Jerry

Hi Jerry,

Yes that would seem a sensible action, as the aim for the scheme seems to have been to remove the wing roundels.

Edit: Just zoomed right in to the Starkey graphic and I reckon you can see a couple of pixels of blue outside the white bands.

Fancy posting any of the photos?

All the best,

Steve.

I have one question about the ‘Starkey’ colours though. In the graphic in Jerry’s links it shows the aircraft as having both black and white stripes on the top surfaces of the wings which cover the roundels. For the Whirlwind though only two white stripes are applied which would only cover half of the roundels, but no roundels are seen in the graphic, is this right? Were they over painted with grey or green, or half visible, or completely visible?

Any thoughts?

Steve

Hi Steve,
From the only three photos I have seen,
Only one photo shows the uppersurfaces of HE-X, view is from port aft about 15 deg view, it is hard to work out,but there doesn’t seem to be any wing roundels.
The other part is HE-Z, view from starboard front undersurfaces, again about the 15deg angle, it doesn’t seem to have any wing roundels.
Both a/c have the fuselage roundels and fin flash, HE-X has a well worn fuselage tail band.
As only a small portion ( 15% ? ) of the type ‘B’ roundel on the upper wing would be visible, My bet would be that the outer white stripe was ‘widdened’ to cover the roundel.
I think the ‘4+’ and ‘warpaint’ profiles aren’t quite right in showing roundels
Cheers
Jerry

I have one question about the ‘Starkey’ colours though. In the graphic in Jerry’s links it shows the aircraft as having both black and white stripes on the top surfaces of the wings which cover the roundels. For the Whirlwind though only two white stripes are applied which would only cover half of the roundels, but no roundels are seen in the graphic, is this right? Were they over painted with grey or green, or half visible, or completely visible?

Any thoughts?

Steve

Operation Starkey it is then.

Steve.

Op Rutter

The model does indeed have the markings applied for Operation Rutter. It is probably a model of 302 Sqn’s AA853 WX-C. This aircraft is also often erroneously described has having special markings applied for Operation Jubilee and the personal aircraft of W/Cdr Witorzeńć, commander of the 1st Polish Wing. There is even a story that goes with it.

Supposedly while at Croydon the Poles began to look for ways to facilitate quick recognition of friendly aircraft and came up with the idea of painting the noses of their Spitfires with white stripes. These were applied to W/C Cdr Witorzeńć’s aircraft as an experiment and the noses of a few other Spitfires were marked with chalk in preparation for painting. The whole scheme was abandoned because of lack of official RAF approval.

In fact the markings were introduced by Fighter Command signal on 5th July 1942 and abandoned by FC signal on 17th July. The same markings can be seen on photographs of 310 (Czech) and 331 (Norwegian) Sqn Spitfires taken in early July 1942. Also W/C Cdr Witorzeńć was commander the 2nd Polish Wing at Kirton-in-Lindsey at that time.

Operation Rutter was original plan to raid Dieppe on the 4th July 1942 but was abandoned due to bad weather. It was rescheduled to take place between the 18th and 23rd August 1942 and renamed Jubilee. (Compare the dates with FC signals.) Probably these markings have been described as applied for Dieppe and this has led to them being confused with Jubilee despite photographs taken during Jubilee and of shot down aircraft showing no special markings. Also it seems that every time an aircraft is seen with strange markings that are not D-Day stripes it is assumed that they were also for the Dieppe operation.

As there seems to be a limit on the amount of attachments in the forum I have put the photographs elsewhere. Hopefully this link will allow you to view them.

http://aolpictures.aol.co.uk/ap/viewShare.do?shareInfo=mFQYMXJcDsVGl83Yb4clHXmAW8vqIgg9xFTSOsfZRW1WGd%2bBXiXp6w%3d%3d

Hi Antoni,
I am glad it is roughly what I thought it was, But I didn’t know the interesting story behind how they came about…
So now I just have to find the fighter command signal on 5th July 1942 for Op Rutter, to find what the markings for twin engined a/c were, As it is more likely now that due to this signal that 263Sq whirlwind’s could have carried these Op Rutter markings.
Thanks for posting the photo link.
Cheers
Jerry

Hi All,
I agree the photos of the whirlwinds I have seen so far are of the Starkey Operation.
Of interest, 263Sq was involved in ‘Op Rutter’, the cancelled ‘dieppe raid’ ( July 42).
263Sq ‘diary’ records
‘ July 1st – 8th ‘A’ Flight detached to Portreath, ‘B’ flight fairwood common sector,…..
…..the cause of the move was, no doubt, the preliminary tryout of the dieppe dispositions.’

Op Rutter was cancelled on 7th July, hence the move back on 8th july, so there is a faint possibility, that 263SQ might have had the Op Rutter markings.

A quick search and a small photo, but it shows what I think have been described as the Op Rutter markings, on a spitfire.
http://www.aircraftmodels.co.uk/s.aspx?k=2523258

Comments welcome as usual.
Cheers
jerry

The model does indeed have the markings applied for Operation Rutter. It is probably a model of 302 Sqn’s AA853 WX-C. This aircraft is also often erroneously described has having special markings applied for Operation Jubilee and the personal aircraft of W/Cdr Witorzeńć, commander of the 1st Polish Wing. There is even a story that goes with it.

Supposedly while at Croydon the Poles began to look for ways to facilitate quick recognition of friendly aircraft and came up with the idea of painting the noses of their Spitfires with white stripes. These were applied to W/C Cdr Witorzeńć’s aircraft as an experiment and the noses of a few other Spitfires were marked with chalk in preparation for painting. The whole scheme was abandoned because of lack of official RAF approval.

In fact the markings were introduced by Fighter Command signal on 5th July 1942 and abandoned by FC signal on 17th July. The same markings can be seen on photographs of 310 (Czech) and 331 (Norwegian) Sqn Spitfires taken in early July 1942. Also W/C Cdr Witorzeńć was commander the 2nd Polish Wing at Kirton-in-Lindsey at that time.

Operation Rutter was original plan to raid Dieppe on the 4th July 1942 but was abandoned due to bad weather. It was rescheduled to take place between the 18th and 23rd August 1942 and renamed Jubilee. (Compare the dates with FC signals.) Probably these markings have been described as applied for Dieppe and this has led to them being confused with Jubilee despite photographs taken during Jubilee and of shot down aircraft showing no special markings. Also it seems that every time an aircraft is seen with strange markings that are not D-Day stripes it is assumed that they were also for the Dieppe operation.

As there seems to be a limit on the amount of attachments in the forum I have put the photographs elsewhere. Hopefully this link will allow you to view them.

http://aolpictures.aol.co.uk/ap/viewShare.do?shareInfo=mFQYMXJcDsVGl83Yb4clHXmAW8vqIgg9xFTSOsfZRW1WGd%2bBXiXp6w%3d%3d

Imagine all of the books being wrong though!

This is not that unusual, during my research into the Great Escape I came across the same reference to Sqn Ldr Roger Bushell being shot down in a Hurricane, when the fact was it was a 92 Sqn Spitifire. It was clearly taken as fact from one book and copied by the subsequent authors without cross reference with the official records.

Hi Jerry,

Thanks for clearing that up. I will just use a much later standard scheme.

Or just having followed all your links, maybe not.

Imagine all of the books being wrong though!

All the best,

Steve.

Hi Stu,

You are a goldmine. That’s exactly what I am talking about, the ‘Dieppe’ scheme with bombs! So are all these references to the Whirlwinds on the raid wrong? It’s all very confusing. The colour drawing also shows a third version of the scheme with the black distemper covering all of the wing undersides. I know of two other apparent versions which have black outside of the nacelles and either grey or sky for the rest. Which is correct???
Steve

Hi
None correct for Dieppe Raid period …..all the references are wrong, basically most of the whirlwind books seem to have use the same ‘mistakes’ as the previous ones…

Following extracts from 263Sq diary,
only one early morning operational flight 18 Aug ,( the day before dieppe raid), next operational flight a scramble on 22 Aug.

16th. – 31st.
During this period the squadron echelon was kept busy fitting bomb-racks. Only one section was kept at Readiness. Accordingly nearly all the members first of “B” Flight and then of “A” Flight were able to take a weeks leave.

A few links..
http://www.ipmsgreatplains.com/Articles/starkey_graphic.htm

http://www.ipmsgreatplains.com/Articles/OpStarkey.htm

an old thread I started on TOCH
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archive/index.php?t-410.html

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?autocom=downloads&showfile=3785

http://forum.combatace.com/index.php?autocom=downloads&req=display&code=ss&full=1&id=3785

Hope this clears up the confusion.
Cheers
Jerry

Hi Stu,

You are a goldmine. That’s exactly what I am talking about, the ‘Dieppe’ scheme with bombs! So are all these references to the Whirlwinds on the raid wrong? It’s all very confusing. The colour drawing also shows a third version of the scheme with the black distemper covering all of the wing undersides. I know of two other apparent versions which have black outside of the nacelles and either grey or sky for the rest. Which is correct???

Still confused

Steve

Steve.

Found these…

The photo on page 9 of the +4 Whirlwind book clearly shows two white bands on the wings and a white nose, which in Whirlwind circles seems to be refered to as the ‘Dieppe Scheme’. The aircraft in the photo is also carring bombs, which makes it a Whirlibomber.

Hi
There is a photo in the series of photos taken, that I have seen and on the back is hand written in wartime :-

manston for the ‘invasion’

I think the photos are definitely taken in sept ’43 and the comment on the back of the photo refers to Op Starkey.
cheers
Jerry

Hi Folks,

Thanks for the replies.

The photo on page 9 of the +4 Whirlwind book clearly shows two white bands on the wings and a white nose, which in Whirlwind circles seems to be refered to as the ‘Dieppe Scheme’. The aircraft in the photo is also carring bombs, which makes it a Whirlibomber. So who knows?

Perhaps I will choose a later normal scheme instead.

All the best

Steve

dieppe

Hi All,
I agree the photos of the whirlwinds I have seen so far are of the Starkey Operation.
Of interest, 263Sq was involved in ‘Op Rutter’, the cancelled ‘dieppe raid’ ( July 42).
263Sq ‘diary’ records
‘ July 1st – 8th ‘A’ Flight detached to Portreath, ‘B’ flight fairwood common sector,…..
…..the cause of the move was, no doubt, the preliminary tryout of the dieppe dispositions.’

Op Rutter was cancelled on 7th July, hence the move back on 8th july, so there is a faint possibility, that 263SQ might have had the Op Rutter markings.

A quick search and a small photo, but it shows what I think have been described as the Op Rutter markings, on a spitfire.
http://www.aircraftmodels.co.uk/s.aspx?k=2523258

Comments welcome as usual.
Cheers
jerry

Whirlwind ‘Starkey’ markings

In addition to the markings quoted by MrBlueSky, the wing tips outboard of the outer white stripe were painted black.

So starting from the stripe nearest the fuselage the stripes went black/white/black/white/black tip. D-Day stripes of course went white/black/white/black/white!

The markings were on for about a week; they had been painted in distemper, for easy removal. I have a copy of the original doc which promulagated the markings.

Steve about your query about the Dieppe Raid markings for your Whirlybomber, I found this little snippet in my “odds and sods” folder, I can’t remember where it came from or wether its true either… 🙁

No special markings for Dieppe. The application of these markings is recorded in some Squadrons ORB and the date is early July 1942.The plans were dropped and “Operation Jubilee” succeeded it in August.
A white nose and black bands on the wing tips, are markings applied for the last “full-scale” test of some of the strategies planned for the forthcoming invasion. This was “Operation Starkey” which took place during mid-September 1943. Single-engined planes taking part had 2 black and 2 white stripes painted around the outer part of the wings only, while twin-engined planes had a white-painted nose, as well. This applied mainly to Bostons and Whirlwinds. There is a photo of a Whirlwind with these markings in N.Frank’s “Fighter Command Losses 1943”.