westland whirlwind fighter in black paint

404 error on the link

works if you go via the backdoor:D

something not right here, how can you have radar in a nose designed for cannons, not the best choice of aircraft for nightfighting, but one never knows

works if you go via the backdoor:D
something not right here, how can you have radar in a nose designed for cannons, not the best choice of aircraft for nightfighting, but one never knows

The early marks of AI were not nose mounted as such.

I thought that the early AI sets were pretty labour intensive – hence the need for a dedicated radar operator in the back seat.

Would it actually be possible to fly and radar operate at the same time?

Incidentally the first Jeeps didn’t come into wide use in the British armed forces much before the Spring of 42 – the first MB was only built in late 41 so April 41 till July 41 seems a bit early.

I don’t know about the accuracy of Wikipedia, but it makes no mention of an actual “night-fighter” Whirlwind, only one was tested as such.

The Beaufighter, however, was active as a night-fighter in that time…

thanks jeepman,

took the words out of my mouth, a swine to fly with those engines, and then give them a radar to watch!!!!!.

don’t take me wrong, anything is possible with the RAF at the time, but it seem unlikely

I have some pictures of a (the ?) prototype Whirlwind L6844 which the caption says is “painted in dark grey primer with a gloss varnish”.

Its also unarmed but with fairings in the nose for the cannon. Its not dated but it could explain the sighting in part?

I have some pictures of a (the ?) prototype Whirlwind L6844 which the caption says is “painted in dark grey primer with a gloss varnish”.

Its also unarmed but with fairings in the nose for the cannon. Its not dated but it could explain the sighting in part?

The first prototype (L6844) flew on 11 October 1938 with further Service Trials carried out at Martlesham Heath.

I suppose the actual radar workings would still be fairly secret in 1941, but like I say the Wiki article only has the one aircraft, a prototype at that, being tested as a night-fighter.

Here’s the Link:

http://www.wartimememories.co.uk/airfields/bicester.html

Hi Jerry
As far as I’m aware no Whirlwind ever carried any form of AI nor was one ever tested as a night fighter. A&AEE performed brief night flying trials with P6997 in May 41, but these weren’t to test its ability as a night fighter, simply to establish whether its flying, and particularly landing, characteristics were suitable for night operations.

As for Whirlwinds being painted Night, you can never say never, but I’ve not seen anything to indicate that they were. In the April-June 41 timeframe being discussed here the Whirlwinds were not even flying night operations – 263 Squadron did not fly its first night ops until Jan 15th 1943. Even after that, when both Whirlwind squadrons were performing regular night rhubarbs and intruders, they were also performing a large number of daytime ops in which the Night distemper would have been a real handicap. Also during this period both squadrons were extensively photographed and filmed. The Charles Brown photographs of 137 and 263 show large numbers of the units’ aircraft and the Movietone News film pans across almost all of 263 Squadrons Whirlwinds. All look to me to be in standard MSG undersides.

My guess would be that this recollection relates to a Beaufighter (or perhaps even Havoc) unit rather than a Whirlwind one.

Niall

that link now works, certainly sounds intriguing

According to Derek James, Aeroplane May 2006. On 30th May 1940 the second prototype went to RAF North Weald where 25 Squadron were undertaking operational trials with radar-equipped Blenheim 1F nightfighters. 25 Squadron were earmarked to become the first Whirlwind squadron and was to evaluate the new aircraft’s suitability as a nightfighter. Soon afterwards the first and second production Whirlwinds, P6966 and P6967 joined L6845. The squadron’s pilots dubbed it the “Whirlygigg” and were not convinced it could operate effectively as a nightfighter, largely because of its 110 mph approach and landing speed. The Air Ministry decided that the squadron’s experience with the Blenheim could be more usefully applied to the Beaufighter.The Whirlwinds were returned to Yeovil (July) and 25 Squadron received Beaufighters instead.

Hi All,

Yeah you have all echoed my first thoughts, but my second thoughts were

many years ago i was told of whirlwinds at one time having temporary night finish, ( I assumed at that time it was the dieppe markings as they were refered to then, later to be proved as operation starkey markings ) even thou’ i was told that they didn’t the have white noses.

My outside thoughts on this later was that they may have seen a photo of the armed prototype taken with ortho film, {as yellow apears black} ( i haven’t seen one yet, but it doesn’t mean there isn’t/wasn’t one taken )

Back to the linked web page,
my apologies for my bad link…:o

my thoughts mosquito, but the first fighter version wasn’t until may’41 and the first NF I think Oct ’41, ( prototype conversion ? )
apparently most of the first NFII’s were delivered Jan’42 on lacked radar until before apr’42 ( the guy left the OTU in july ’41 )

Havoc, but i think a crew would identify radial engines and tricycle undercarriage.

beaufighter well again radial engines although a tail wheel

Blenheim well they were flying one so they should now it…

As to AI, thought it would be strange in a whirlwind, so I thought could it be the nose cannon in darkness mistaken for aerials ?

So i thought post a few threads and see what people think..

Thanks all for your replies, It may just be another ‘mystery’ for the file, but a very interesting and random story.

Cheers
Jerry

P.S.

Does anyone know if the temporary night finish was ’emulsion’ paint just washed off with something like water ?

Hi Jerry
As far as I’m aware no Whirlwind ever carried any form of AI nor was one ever tested as a night fighter. A&AEE performed brief night flying trials with P6997 in May 41, but these weren’t to test its ability as a night fighter, simply to establish whether its flying, and particularly landing, characteristics were suitable for night operations.

As for Whirlwinds being painted Night, you can never say never, but I’ve not seen anything to indicate that they were. In the April-June 41 timeframe being discussed here the Whirlwinds were not even flying night operations – 263 Squadron did not fly its first night ops until Jan 15th 1943. Even after that, when both Whirlwind squadrons were performing regular night rhubarbs and intruders, they were also performing a large number of daytime ops in which the Night distemper would have been a real handicap. Also during this period both squadrons were extensively photographed and filmed. The Charles Brown photographs of 137 and 263 show large numbers of the units’ aircraft and the Movietone News film pans across almost all of 263 Squadrons Whirlwinds. All look to me to be in standard MSG undersides.

My guess would be that this recollection relates to a Beaufighter (or perhaps even Havoc) unit rather than a Whirlwind one.

Niall

Hi Naill,
I thought the movie film was Nov’42, 263 Sqn I think did it’s first night op in late Jan ’43.
Is the Movietone the same as the pathe film ? or is the another one for me to get ?
Cheers
Jerry

Here’s the Link:

http://www.wartimememories.co.uk/airfields/bicester.html

Thanks
Jerry

Jerry

The 263 Squadron footage I’ve got has British Pathe written all over it…

The 137 Squadron footage from the IWM is totally different, whether it was taken by MovieTone, I wouldn’t know?

I thought I had already sent you a copy of it Jerry or was that Niall… :confused:

Stuart

Hi All,
Just a sudden thought…
Anyone know when the first merlin beaufighter flew.
cheers
Jerry

Hi Jerry

I believe that the Pathe and Movietone footage are one and the same wrt 263 Squadron. In the ORB the photographers are referred to as being from Movietone.

Although not certain I think that the 137 Squadron footage may have come from Humphrey Coghlan. Having said that the quality is a little too good for the 8mm home movie type stuff. If not from HC then it is possible that the footage is from the press visit to 137 in March 1943.

Paul

Would it actually be possible to fly and radar operate at the same time?

Defiant pilots managed it.

Hi All,
Just a sudden thought…
Anyone know when the first merlin beaufighter flew.
cheers
Jerry

July 1940