Westland Whirlwind Fighter P.R.O. Files

Just my air fare there and back. 😀

Hmmm, to much, to far and to long… I know I’ll send you a pick and a shovel and if we both start now I’ll meet you next to that big magnetic molten ball at lunch time… 😉

😀

Perhaps I should hire you to deal with Westlands… What do you charge?

Just my air fare there and back. 😀

You might be right there JDK, PR Dept. – HR Dept. I wasn’t talking to them… Fred spoke to them to ask how much it would cost to photocopy the AP.1709A It was then the trouble started with their estimate of costs… Later I found out that they didn’t believe I was asking for this infomation off my own back! As soon as they knew a gaming company would be receiving the finished model they assumed I was somehow financially involved… Hence the price, hence the end of the dialog with Fred, hands tied, so to speak!

Unforntunately I can’t see Westlands changing their tune if I go back to them, thats why I’m trying to get the information from other sources… The documents I ordered from the NA at Kew arrived to day, nicely photocopied on A3 sheets. £30 the lot, no hassle…

If you are after cockpit info, have you talked to the IWM photo archive to see if they have copies of the Air Min instructional cockpit photos?

Not yet, but I’m going to in the near future… 😉 Perhaps I should hire you to deal with Westlands… What do you charge?

I’ve been to Westlands and spoken to Fred myself, very helpful man, but unfortunately Westlands HR Dept. are not. I won’t go into all that happened, but will say that in the end it came down to the old folding stuff…

That’s odd!

Dunno what you were talking to the HR department for! Did you mean the PR dept?

I’m also surprised, because Westlands were extremely helpful, particularly in the form of Fred Ballam, with my recent Lysander book, and we were able to use dozens of their photos, copies supplied at no charge, just appropriately acknowledged. We also had copies of colour scheme data, plus copies ofg the original details of the Delanne Lysander (P-12) drawings to help us prepare our 3 view. Again, at no cost. It would have been a much shorter book without their help.

I’d suggest you go back and ask again. Sounds like you hit the wrong person who gave you the ‘high-quote-to-get-rid-of-them’ answer.

If you are after cockpit info, have you talked to the IWM photo archive to see if they have copies of the Air Min instructional cockpit photos?

Good luck.

Mr Blue Sky. I see Westlands haven’t changed 🙂

😉 It’s a great shame, but true…

Sorry, it’s been a bit on the hectic side at work… I’ll get back to you ASAP… 😉

Mr Blue Sky. I see Westlands haven’t changed 🙂

Again, as before I appreciate what you’ve done and your time in helping me… Thank you!

AVIA 18/691 (which you’ve ordered) is (most of) the A&AEE test reports on the Whirlwind. This will give you most of the performance data you need. Be aware that the primary report (issued 31/07/40) is based on tests on the second prototype between Aug 39 and April 40 at which time it was hardly representative of production aircraft (Rotol rather than de H props, different pitch settings, different boost settings, external carb intakes etc). Most representative is the data for P6997 (in this file in Part 7 of AAEE/733). This file also contains performance/handling/cooling tests with the aircraft carrying bombs.

Good that has saved me a lot of time, thank you for the break down NiallC

There is an additional file (AVIA 18/1000) with a single A&AEE report on clearing the Whirlwind bomb installation and listing the variety of stores it was cleared to carry. If you’d like me to precis it, PM me. In reality 95%+ of all Whirlibomber sorties were carried out with 2 x 250 lb (usually fused for 3 seconds delay for low level work lest they present more of a threat to the Whirlwind than the Germans). On a few occasions 2 x 500 lb were used, fused for 11 seconds if used at low level.

How many pages does this report have NiallC? I think I will order a copy

There is one crash investigation report (Report W1229) in AVIA 5/19 which does contain some dimensioned drawings of the cockpit area and structure. You’d be better off going and inpecting this in person, since If I remember correctly many of the drawings have been separated from the crash reprt and are now dotted around inside a rather large file. Not a problem if you know what you’re looking at, but I don’t know what you’d get if you asked TNA to copy it.

Again, if its not to long I will get a hard copy made and inquire about the drawings you mentioned. Are they in a separate folder to the main report?

The RAF Museum Archive has a better selection of Whirlwind APs than the NA including the ground handling notes, modification leaflets, spares schedules and repair procedures, but I doubt there’s much that would be useful for your purposes and probably the best source for cockpit layouts etc would be the AP that you already have – whic also gives a lot of data on the aircrafts structure and systems.

I did at one time have the complete set of AP Vol’s and your correct that they are not much use to me in regards to cockpit data… But nither is 1709A, Vol I as the photo’s are not of very high quality and consquently leaves a lot of guess work as to what is what! What I would like to get hold of is the original photo’s that are in the pilots notes… Don’t suppose you know where you would find them do you…Ha!

Only a tiny fraction of the 20,000 or so production drawings survive and things like the loftings for the fuselage are not among them. Your best bet here is to contact Fred Ballam at Westland and see if he has anything that might be useful.

I’ve been to Westlands and spoken to Fred myself, very helpful man, but unfortunately Westlands HR Dept. are not. I won’t go into all that happened, but will say that in the end it came down to the old folding stuff… I got a photocopy of AP 1709A from R-R Derby for £25… Westlands wanted 32x as much for the same volume… So I don’t think Westlands is an option on a restricted budget!

Thank you NiallC, you’ve been a great help.

Once again thank you for replying… 25deg south

Hal Penrose. By this do you mean Harold Penrose, Westlands Chief Test Pilot.

My God this is a turn up for the books! Put me in touch with the Curator… Yes, please do!

I will try any avenue to get as much information on the Whirlwind in one place so to speak. Everything I get towards this project will eventually be scanned and donated to the Hendon Museum for their archives…
And thats a promise…
Send me a PM please, have no doubt I am very serious about this!

HP57

Not much but hope it helps a bit.

Firstly thank you for replying. I appreciate you for spending time to help me get information for this project.

I’ve read about the WIX building a full scale reproduction of the Whirly, a great shame it never came off! Do you know any of the team that were involved and how much information they had collected, before they closed the project?

When you mention the RAF Museum, do you mean RAF Hendon?

Peter Elliot, excuse my ignorance but who is he and where can I contact him?

Thanks again for your help.

Stuart.

I really don’t know if this will be of use but I do believe that Hal Penrose donated his personal collection to Brooklands.
There is a certain amount of Westland historic material ( Delanne Lysander etc. )held for the time being , believe it or not, at the Intelligence Museum at Chicksands. This is not normally open to the public however ,for a serious enquiry off-line I can put you in touch with the Curator.

First thing to remember is that the National Archives is just that, not an industrial/corporate archive. It’s strong on policy, development and operational use of aircraft, but contains almost no data of the kind you’re looking for (for the period in question anyway).

Of the files you’ve mentioned there are two exceptions:
AIR 10/2643 is the Whirlwind AP (which you already have)

AVIA 18/691 (which you’ve ordered) is (most of) the A&AEE test reports on the Whirlwind. This will give you most of the performance data you need. Be aware that the primary report (issued 31/07/40) is based on tests on the second prototype between Aug 39 and April 40 at which time it was hardly representative of production aircraft (Rotol rather than de H props, different pitch settings, different boost settings, external carb intakes etc). Most representative is the data for P6997 (in this file in Part 7 of AAEE/733). This file also contains performance/handling/cooling tests with the aircraft carrying bombs.

There is an additional file (AVIA 18/1000) with a single A&AEE report on clearing the Whirlwind bomb installation and listing the variety of stores it was cleared to carry. If you’d like me to precis it, PM me. In reality 95%+ of all Whirlibomber sorties were carried out with 2 x 250 lb (usually fused for 3 seconds delay for low level work lest they present more of a threat to the Whirlwind than the Germans). On a few occasions 2 x 500 lb were used, fused for 11 seconds if used at low level.

There is one crash investigation report (Report W1229) in AVIA 5/19 which does contain some dimensioned drawings of the cockpit area and structure. You’d be better off going and inpecting this in person, since If I remember correctly many of the drawings have been separated from the crash reprt and are now dotted around inside a rather large file. Not a problem if you know what you’re looking at, but I don’t know what you’d get if you asked TNA to copy it.

The RAF Museum Archive has a better selection of Whirlwind APs than the NA including the ground handling notes, modification leaflets, spares schedules and repair procedures, but I doubt there’s much that would be useful for your purposes and probably the best source for cockpit layouts etc would be the AP that you already have – whic also gives a lot of data on the aircrafts structure and systems.

Only a tiny fraction of the 20,000 or so production drawings survive and things like the loftings for the fuselage are not among them. Your best bet here is to contact Fred Ballam at Westland and see if he has anything that might be useful.

The good news is of course that whatever you create, nobody will be able to criticise it on any solid grounds:-)

Hope this helps

NiallC

Mr Blue Sky,

Airfix magazine January 1979 had an article name ‘ Whirlwind Memories ‘
(written by Michael J Bower)
this contains some Westland drawings (Fin, wing and landing gear)

I have a the magazine which I could scan and email (4 pages)

PM your email address if you want the article

Tony

Hi There,

Not to worry, I had looked into the Whirwind files at Kew a few years ago when the old WIX (Warbird Information Exchange) was planning on building a full scale static reproduction. For this I visited Kew and read everything I could find on this fantastic aircraft. Mostly about the scrapping of the airframes after the war and where wrecksites were to be found for eventual recovery. Unfortunately the project failed but the most useful item I would consider to be the Aircraft Publication covering the Whirlwind showing a lot of info on the structure (but you have that already). The only blueprint I found was the Mk II covering the cannon nose and some photo’s showing crashed aircraft. I have lost the information about these files but you seem to have a complete list. There are no drawings at Kew but perhaps the RAF Museum can be useful as they have a indexes showing any drawings they have in store. Try Peter Elliott for this, he is a great chap.

Not much but hope it helps a bit.

Cheers

Cees

Oh dear… 🙁