what about DERBY?

i think the non-technical idiotic media has made us believe that an active BVR missile can be launched and the fighter locks on and leaves the engagement..there is nothing of this sort in the real world where there are multiple engagements as well as other factors…also the thing about the baby BVR missile i think it is a great capability…i think the p5 cannot be mounted on the wingtips therefore why not carry derby and develop an derby Ir version if it can be made small….i think that is where it is headed….no matter how good the p5 or aim-9x is the dual seeker derby,amraam or mica will still be more flexible then the aim-9x,asraam or p5…the f/a-22 is at a sort of disadvantage with its side weapon bays in that they can only carry the aim-9 and not an amraam size missile however one could always go in for bulging weapon bays etc..and northrop is allready trying that out….the advantage of ABVR’s is still significant although almost every pilot i have talked to seems to want the sparrow to stik around for some time if not for its in your face capability rather then the numerical presence..i think the mica IR is the way to go and other missile manufacters such as raytheon and isreili manuf. will follow soot either now or later.

In fact, that would be possible. Russians claim the R-77 can be fired even from MiG-ATS, which as such does not possess any Doppler radar device. Czechs claim that L-159A can fire AMRAAM. Anyway, we should understand the word *can* as *is theoretically able, but only within the range of the active seeker*. Of course, such tactics of using the thing w/o midcourse updates would impair the effectivity of use of the missile concerned. If any pilot tried to get rid of two or three $800.000 missiles for nothing, he surely can kiss his Air Force carreer goodbye.

allright crobato. 😎
now, i wander…when we talk “fire and forget”, it doesnt nessesarily means free to “turn around and walk away” (it remains me of a song from “the babys” 😀 ) aint it?
otherwise, who’s giving the datalink update?, so you still have to illuminate the oponent with your own radar, is that true? :confused:
Camaro.

Oh yes.

So long its got a datalink, BVR is never a complete fire and forget affair. The FF thing is marketing talk.

The advantage is that you don’t need to go to STT (Single Target Tracking). Track While Scan mode is sufficient to provide the updates. Under TWS, you can engage multiple targets at the same time, the radar updating for all launched missiles.

BINGO!!!, thanks man, now i see a better picture, of course, you have not only 1 BVR and there are plenty of targets to have fun with, so you have to stay a little bit on course, that’s why.
thanks to you too flex, yes i agree on the baby BVR, equally dangerous BTW 😉
Camaro.

i think the non-technical idiotic media has made us believe that an active BVR missile can be launched and the fighter locks on and leaves the engagement..there is nothing of this sort in the real world where there are multiple engagements as well as other factors…also the thing about the baby BVR missile i think it is a great capability…i think the p5 cannot be mounted on the wingtips therefore why not carry derby and develop an derby Ir version if it can be made small….i think that is where it is headed….no matter how good the p5 or aim-9x is the dual seeker derby,amraam or mica will still be more flexible then the aim-9x,asraam or p5…the f/a-22 is at a sort of disadvantage with its side weapon bays in that they can only carry the aim-9 and not an amraam size missile however one could always go in for bulging weapon bays etc..and northrop is allready trying that out….the advantage of ABVR’s is still significant although almost every pilot i have talked to seems to want the sparrow to stik around for some time if not for its in your face capability rather then the numerical presence..i think the mica IR is the way to go and other missile manufacters such as raytheon and isreili manuf. will follow soot either now or later.

but it means that your radar isnt slaved to the target giving u the freedom to attack other targets

BINGO!!!, thanks man, now i see a better picture, of course, you have not only 1 BVR and there are plenty of targets to have fun with, so you have to stay a little bit on course, that’s why.
thanks to you too flex, yes i agree on the baby BVR, equally dangerous BTW 😉
Camaro.

yes, some people claim its better than the R-77 or the MICA, even the AMRAAM, wich i doubt
also i’ve heard that it lacks midcourse update, is this true?
personally i dont think its better than any BVR missile today but not very much info is available either.
any comments?
Camaro.

Derby is much lighter than those three, sort of baby-BVR…

but it means that your radar isnt slaved to the target giving u the freedom to attack other targets

allright crobato. 😎
now, i wander…when we talk “fire and forget”, it doesnt nessesarily means free to “turn around and walk away” (it remains me of a song from “the babys” 😀 ) aint it?
otherwise, who’s giving the datalink update?, so you still have to illuminate the oponent with your own radar, is that true? :confused:
Camaro.

Yes, I’m refering to enemy position update, or maybe commands given by the parent radar to ‘guide’ the missile to its target.

Recently in an article Pakistan AF claims to have fired an “indigenously” made BVR A2A missile using their upgraded Mirages with Grifo-M, another article say their Mirages have been equipped to carry U-Darter and R-Darter, which in turn is based on the Israeli Derby. Production is said to be going on at the Air Weapons complex. Any truth in this? Though i must say I haven’t found a pic and the only source seems to be the local paper. My apologies if i’m going a bit off topic with this post.

yes crobato, but just to make it clear, y think you are mixing INS nav update with the enemy position update?
sure, INS requires every so often a position update, better if you have GPS NAV, but i’m talking navigation, if i’m not mistaken Amraam or R-77 are updated with enemy aircraft position, cause you know they’ll feel the missile coming from far away and they’ll move evasive, i think that’s the datalink info if i’m not mistaken.
please correct me if i’m wrong.
another, MICA seem to go much farther than that, i’ve heard from a friend that its about the same as amraam or R-77, again i could be wrong. 🙂
Camaro.

INS can have two forms, with and without datalink. The two are not mutually inclusive. The Derby can have INS but without datalink. In this case, without datalink updates, the chances of “missing” the target with the seeker acquisition basket is greater, but on the other hand, you have a true fire and forget missile. The AMRAAM can operate on both modes actually.

Without datalink, your lockon ranges aer much shorter but on the other hand, the Israelis are not big believers in BVR and still hold the concept of WVR and mixing it up, king. This explains their priority in the development of WVR missiles as opposed to BVRAAMs with other countries. The Derby is what you may call a Just Beyond Visual Range missile, whose design is to emphasize maneuverability rather than range. Note how far the canards are to the front, which emphasizes agility again. In that sense, the Derby belongs to the small group of “JBVRs” that include the Mica and the R-Darter.

shalom again erez 🙂
thanks for the info, and the videos (i’ve saved them both, Derby and Python-4) now i can see a much better picture.
thnaks again brother.
Camaro.

Derby movie.
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/files/videos/Derby.wmv

and still no mention of any datalink fpr mid-course update.

Well, I’m not so sure about datalink, but according to the website I brought here:
“Ben-Hanan said Derby can be operated in two modes.

One is a lock-on after launch mode for long-range engagements in which the missile employs inertial guidance immediately after launch until the seeker is activated and homes in on the target.”
I guess this means the missile can fix its course after launch.

Shalom Camaro 🙂
It seems to be less capable than the Amraam (and R-77), and that’s probably why the IDF/AF isn’t using it, though the Derby was integrated with the air force’s fleet of F-16s.
It’s still a wonderful solution for a whole lot of countries who can’t get the Amraam due to political problems with Uncle Sam, and that don’t want to pay the high price of making the R-77 work on their planes, or just doesn’t want eastern gear.
It’s not a large scale success, but still – it’s Israel first BVR missile and there is plenty of room for improvements 😉

thanks erez (shalom) 😉
the link is good and pretty informative.
now comparing, it doesnt seem to be superior to the amraam nor the R-77, ain’t it?, its still a formidable weapon but seems to be just a complement for the Python-4 with slightly longer range and still no mention of any datalink fpr mid-course update.
wouldnt like it comming towards me anyway 😀
Camaro.

Derby and python now form the capable looking Spyder mobile SAM system for protection of forces on the march. should be able to shred any loitering attack helos or lo-lo-lo birds limb from limb.

Precisely!

Now put that in the air, and you have no one getting away from a WVR attack.

DERBY has a diameter of 16 cm. (6.3 in.), is 362 cm. (12 ft.) long and weighs 118 kg. (260 lb.). And then it has a max engagement range of 50km!! They used the PYTHON motor and added to it to give the DERBY more range, but more than twice that of a PYTHON 4? I wonder……. :confused:

Derby and python now form the capable looking Spyder mobile SAM system for protection of forces on the march. should be able to shred any loitering attack helos or lo-lo-lo birds limb from limb.

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/missile_systems/air_missiles/derby/Derby.html