What an absolute tragedy

Ah that’s a different matter. Where I worked although I may have been witness to the brain stem death tests, those of us involved in the day to day care would never have been allowed to accompany the person to theatre.

Regards,

kev35

No question that the tests had been properly carried out and the young man was effectively dead before his organs were collected. I checked. She does admit her reaction was irrational but she had been charged with caring for him and witnessing such things is, as you say, polarising.

Hi, Allan.

I too think the opt out scheme is probably the best way forward.

I’m a bit puzzled by your friend’s view as I always understood that for an organ to be harvested (horrible term) that the donor had to have undergone a series of brain stem death tests. The ones I saw were conclusive. No response to stimuli, no respiratory effort when taken off the ventilator etc., so the donor is dead already, it’s just that the organs are being oxygenated artificially. So in effect the donor is deceased before taken to the operating theatre. But who knows, their personal experiences may have led them to believe that is not necessarily the case.

Regards,

kev35

Pondskater/Allan

I’d go along with that, if the Government implements the opt out plan, it would save a lot of lives. The only fear would be the NHS selecting my organs before I popped off my mortal coil, although I may have been retrievable with a bit of effort!!……………that aside, good idea.

Baz

With all due respect, have you ever watched anyone die for want of an organ? Been with them through their last weeks, days and hours knowing full well that every single day organs suitable for transplant are being wasted for the simple reason that the deceased has either made no provision for them to be made available or that their Religious beliefs, or a belief in natural selection, sees these organs rotting in a coffin or cremated? It tends to polarise your views.

A very good friend of mine worked as a nurse and was involved in recovering organs for use in transplant. She told me how she wheeled the young man into the operating theatre and then wheeled him down to the morgue. And because of that she would not join the donor register. Her view was that operating theatres were to cure people – not make them dead.

Witnessing her having a conversation about that with a transplant recipient left me with a much better understanding of the complexity of the situation and how people respond to it. She even admitted her view might be seen as irrational, but it did not stop her holding it. That is what seeing people die can do.

Personally, I would like to see the UK adopting the “opt out” system of donation as was discussed a little while ago – it still allows those with strong views to not donate. See: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jan/14/uk.publicservices

But the case in question here is simply unspeakably tragic. Not all patients get the chance of a transplant but to have the hope created from the operation dashed in this way, I can’t find words for it.

Allan

Anybody, even my enemies (Private and in War) can have my working bits when I’m dead.
My lungs will be a bit tar like though.

I heard today that G. Brown had an ar5ehole transplant. It rejected him.

Ben.

All I can suggest then is you complain to the moderators.

With all due respect, have you ever watched anyone die for want of an organ? Been with them through their last weeks, days and hours knowing full well that every single day organs suitable for transplant are being wasted for the simple reason that the deceased has either made no provision for them to be made available or that their Religious beliefs, or a belief in natural selection, sees these organs rotting in a coffin or cremated? It tends to polarise your views.

Scott and I have had many conversations in the past, some things we agree on, some we don’t. But seeing as you’ve brought the topic back up, let’s look at it a little bit deeper.

I’m speaking generally here, not pointing at any specific person whatsoever. If we take Religious belief as a barrier to the transplantation of organs, or the giving and receiving of blood and blood fractions, then the obvious Religion that comes to mind are Jehovah’s Witnesses. But even that Religion has changed its stance numerous times. Is it not true that their original objection to the administration of blood and blood products, as well as transplantation, is that it was viewed as a form of cannibalism? As far as I was aware, cannibalism is the eating of human flesh by another human. Unless my training went seriously wrong I don’t think that the recipient of a donor organ has to actually eat it? I always thought “God” was meant to be a benevolent and merciful presence in people’s lives?

As for the idea of natural selection, I suspect those practicing this belief are being selective about how far they push this belief? If they have a chest infection do they go to the doctor’s for antibiotics? Or do they ignore it and wait for the pneumonia to develop? I’m sure they take headache pills for a headache, antihistamines for allergic reactions, antibiotics for infections, diuretics and anti hypertensives, insulin for their diabetes etc. The list could go on. So that makes a mockery of their practice if they only fully embrace natural selection when they KNOW they are going to die.

I think there’s only myself and Mecondot who have mentioned the biggest failing of all in the case of this man, and that is the fact that he was an Iraq War Veteran who needed an organ transplant because of an unnamed and incurable lung disease. I can’t help wondering whether it was in some way related to his experiences in Iraq.

I can’t change my view which has been honestly presented as a result of my own personal experiences in caring for those who have died, potentially needlessly, because of the simple fact that there are not enough organs being donated. I can’t have respect for any view that sees a 14 year old die when a liver form one of the hundreds of people who die every day may just have provided a match.

Regards,

kev35.

Before.I.go.on..Yes.I.am.using.full.stops.instead.of.spaces..My.space.bar.is.broken..I.
have.not.been.posting.on.account.of.this.but….

Kev.I.dont.know.how.you.get.away.with.the.way.you.behave.on.here..I.have.an.organ.
donor.card,I.am.a.blood.donor.and.I.agree.with.your.opinions.on.religion..This.does.not.
meen.I.have.any.right.to.judge.any.one.else.and.neither.to.do..This.gentleman.has.over.and.over.again.agreed.to.disagree.with.you.but.you.will.not.let.it.go..We.all.know.the.
good.work.you.do.but.how.long.is.it.going.to.justify.your.abuse.of.other.forum.members.
I.only.hope.the.time.it.takes.you.to.spell.check.my.post.will.spare.some.one.else.an.ear.bashing.for.a.short.time.

Ben

I think you’re being a little hard; we could probably all do more and the fact that we don’t doesn’t make us bad people…..or maybe it does.

How much does it cost to save a life? In the case of becoming an organ donor possibly nothing except the time to explain our wishes to our families.

What about those starving, or dying of easily treated illness in the world; how many lives would the cost of our iPod have saved? It makes you think doesn’t it?

I was just beginning to think along similar lines. Take the cost of the transplant to save one life in the west compared to the lives that money would save in the third world? We probably all get the letters from Oxfam or whoever where they write “£5 would educate this child up to 15”, etc etc.

The fact that they would rather people died because of their own inaction means that they will never have my respect.

I think you’re being a little hard; we could probably all do more and the fact that we don’t doesn’t make us bad people…..or maybe it does.

How much does it cost to save a life? In the case of becoming an organ donor possibly nothing except the time to explain our wishes to our families.

What about those starving, or dying of easily treated illness in the world; how many lives would the cost of our iPod have saved? It makes you think doesn’t it?

Ok Kev

so you have your beliefs and passions and I have mine. So there is where we have to agree to be different like it or not.

Not your choice but it is mine. Freedom of speech and gives me the right to be individual from other people. I am not the only one to think this way either and I wont be the last I dont think.

Exactly.

And not offering your organs to others for donation when they are no longer of any use to you is cutting off your nose to spite someone else’s face.

For me it’s not about a belief system or natural selection, it’s simply a matter of doing the right thing.

There was a line in an old song which is very apt here. “If I can help somebody as I travel along then my living will not be in vain.”

What better end can there be to a life lived than to give the opportunity of life to others?

Regards,

kev35

Natural selection what’s that, sounds pretty scary to me and reminds me of a part of history in living memory some 70 decades ago.

Young people that are healthy dont normaly think of their own mortatlity, but when it comes to having a life threatening illness at what ever age self preservation kicks in, you will be surprised and Im sure that 99.999% of people will accept a transplant to be able to live longer wether it’s for themselves or their children.

Refusing a transplant on grounds that makes no sense is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
G.

a sad and bad notice for veterans and all who know about this job.

Kev

Not everyone has the saem beliefs as yourself. You are to be admired for you strong beliefs on a subject close to your heart but it does not mean that all of us MUST have the same ideals.

There are far more children in the world die of other causes and we seem happy to let them die. I would suggest that the percentage of children that do die from lack of transplant is indeed very little compared to the amount of children that die from neglect or other reasons. As well as all the adults that die from other causes too. It doesnt make it any less tragic when a child does die.

We dont always need to have the same ideas and you are as entitled to opinions as I am to mine. We wont ever see eye to eye on this subject its just a difference of opinion.

Some of us just believe in natural selection and when it is my time to go then it is my time.

I will now bow out of this line of discussion as we are merely repeating what we have both said before. Its not because I find it boring or think I am being attacked in any way and cant handle it but I dont see any point to discussing it further. We both know each others opinions and should agree to disagree.

The report said that he deteriorated very quickly intimating that the tumour had been missed on successive x-rays, hinted at in the report, or that it was an extremely aggressive cancer.
Regards,

kev35

Anyone who receives an organ transplant… be it heart, liver, lungs or kidneys… is put on a lifelong regimen of immunosuppressive drugs such as Cyclosporin, Cellcept and a very powerful steroid called prednisolone… which also suppresses the immune system…you are told all this before the transplant even goes ahead…and you’re also told that long term use of steroids has been known to cause certain cancers in certain individuals …and that having such a compromised immune system… if you do contract some form of cancer in the future it will be very fast and aggressive because of your compromised immune system and therefore virtually impossible to treat…they’re just some of the risks you have to weigh up

I survived a serious kidney illness many years ago and the consquence of it all is that I can’t donate any of my body parts or blood products. I did carry a donor card before.
I too have seen some of my patients die as Kev35 mentioned, it’s something that changes your inner being and life forever. It dosen’t get any easier to see that many lives can be saved if the were enough donors. If anything good comes out of this, you can always become a blood or bone marrow donor.
Regards
G.

But it’s not necessarily religious belief that makes people care what happens to their dead bodies.
I’d be quite happy to be cremated,buried or slung on the council dust-cart and dumped on the local tip.
My daughter though is quite horrified at the thought of her body being burnt and insists she wants to be buried.
People have all kinds of beliefs that have nothing to do with religion.
She’s on the donor register so she doesn’t mind the thought of her body being cut up,it’s the thought of it being burnt she finds quite abhorrent.
Weird eh ?

I agree bumblebee, we are entitled to our own opinions. But watching a 14 year old die for want of a liver and a 17 year old die because she needed a heart and lungs or the 32 year old Mother of four die because some people would rather cremate or bury a perfectly good organ for no other reason than a Religious belief does something to you.

Yes, such people may be entitled to their opinions. The fact that they would rather people died because of their own inaction means that they will never have my respect.

Regards,

kev35

I’m on the organ donor register myself and if anyone can make good use of my clapped-out old corpse when the time comes,they’re welcome to it.
Whatever happens to my body after I’ve finished with it doesn’t bother me one little bit.
But not everyone sees it that way,kev.
That doesn’t mean that they’re either wrong or selfish.We’re all entitled to our own opinions or belief systems,and who’s to say which is right or wrong ?