What constitutes a war grave?

As I said, Paul, it all comes down to the wishes of the family. Whilst that has not always been the case in the past (ie they had no choice until faced with the fait accompli) it doesn’t alter the fact that cases like Dennis Copping and Eric Williams have been pursued because the family wanted the matter pursued. As David Burke said, once the P40 was found it was found, the fate of its pilot became worldwide news and the family had little choice but to address that. When they did, they were adamant; they wanted Dennis Copping’s remains searched for and found if possible. In the case of Eric Williams, the family have been adamant about the same thing since the 1980s. There are many more cases where families have sought to find out, and I have three cases at present where families have sought me out for help in solving such mysteries. So, not a case of third parties ‘reviving old wounds’ but the families themselves being proactive and seeking to find out the facts and recover family members. To some, it is hugely important and it would be wrong to ignore that.

So, what I’m getting from this is, there’s nothing to stop some bloke picking over the 4 U Boats sunk next to the Eddystone Lighthouse?

Once the P-40 was discovered there was undoubtedly going to be a concern as to the fate of her pilot. The discovery of the P-40 was unusual and unlikely to occur again. Should its discovery have been kept quiet in some way ?Its not as if researchers purposely started the hunt for Flt Sgt Copping’s fate without the worldwide media interest in the P-40 story to begin with.

Andy I here what you are saying but does reviving old scars and feelings really justify doing these things because we can. If you have come to terms with the death of a loved one 70 years ago what good does it really do to disturb the dead and living?

As I said this is not knocking what you and others have done, just a question of the validity of doing it

Paul

Like you I have relatives missing from both wars. Realistically, there is no chance that any of the three would be found. There are no real clues as to where to start looking, and the circumstances of two mean that there would probably be nothing to find.

The difference in cases like Dennis Copping is that there are clues to start working on. In the case of Flt Sgt Eric Williams at Gravesend we know who he is and where he is. So, if there are clues that lead us to these men then should we not do something about it? It isn’t a case of ignoring some casualties, particularly soldiers as you say. Just that some missing casualty cases present clues that lead to a trail that lead to the man.

I like Charlie Chaplin!:D

Seriously though it is a danger that we all must guard against to stop history repeating itself.

Isn’t it incredible to realise how much suffering and loss of young lives on all sides was caused by one man with a silly moustache and a bad hairdo…unbelievable !!!

Andy I would like to see Dennis Copping recovered and interred with full military honors. I must also add an interest here. I have relatives missing from 2 world wars and would also like them found and given due honour for their sacrifice. There are many families who have loved ones with no known grave what do you suggest we do, be selective? If we find Private ****** of the Desert Rats just kick the sand over his remains and concentrate on Airmen? What if we dug up all of France and Belgium and DNA’d all the remains we would be bankrupt in a week even if we had enough Portland stone and space to bury them an would we be doing the families a service or opening old wounds

We would all like closure(where the hell did that term come from?) but sometimes maybe it would be better to leave the fallen in peace.

I feel that sometimes the quest for the truth may do more harm than good for those who had to cope with the loss in the first place.

I don’t expect you to agree with me in your mission but perhaps just give some consideration to my post

In cases of missing aircrew it surely should be that living relatives are the final arbiters of what happens. Not governments. Not uninvolved third parties.

In the case of Dennis Copping the family want the matter pursued, have been distressed by what has occurred and wish to see some resolution. The view of any third party in this matter is an irrelevance, really.

Nothing about the quest for Dennis Copping has been obsessional by any party involved. It has been about pursuit of what the family desire, for and on behalf of that family.

Orion,

I have considered carefully what you have written.

No disrespect was intended to Dennis Copping, nor do I think my posting implied any.

Moggy

My post was ambiguous. It wasn’t intended to imply a lack of disrespect on your part, but I am concerned that the obsessional attitudes towards Dennis Copping’s horrendous fate being shown here do show a lack of respect for him and the many, far too many, others who died alone and have no known grave.

Nor should we forget that the tens of millions of civilians who died in WW2 or the part that Germany, in starting the war, caused all those deaths, civilian and military. I sometimes look at the postings of those who study the German side and wonder if they have lost their moral compass. But that is another matter.

Please let Dennis Copping go, he, and so many others, did what they had to do. There is nothing else to say.

Regards

Orion – I would disagree . I think the intense media interest in the story highlighted the men of the desert air force and the lonely fates that some of them suffered. The fate of Flt Sgt Copping itself is a single story in the tale of thousands . However if we don’t care about one and seek to find the truth of his demise
we also don’t care about the many. With the interest in the recovery of the aircraft and the efforts to try and bring it home – efforts to locate remains should on the basis of the Italian information have been achievable.
Why this didn’t happen at the time isn’t clear -the current situation with the aircraft is unclear and the continued situation with the family of Flt Sgt Copping
having to rely on the internet is poor .

So yes intense interest in his fate might be annoying to some in the safe world that we live in typing away on the keyboard – what a sad world we would live in if we didn’t care for one person who paid the ultimate price for his country.

Orion,

I have considered carefully what you have written.

No disrespect was intended to Dennis Copping, nor do I think my posting implied any.

Moggy

His P40 would have been over MAUW and never taken off?

Moggy

;). Dennis Copping is one amongst many tens of thousands who are missing in action and have no known grave. While I wouldn’t wish to be disrespectful to him, I can’t help but think that the current obsessing over his fate is being disrespectful to those many tens of thousands.

Regards

The crash site of BD230 is an interesting one, while the marker was placed at a later date by private subscription the first service at the site was done so by request of No.42 OTU, as is shown by the entry in their ORB on the 1st August 1944, “Canon Farrow, Vicar of St Saviour, Ashbourne, conducted memorial service for missing aircrew in crash at Muggington, Brailsford on 24th July 1944. Committal service was later held at the scene of the accident.”

The marker at the crash site of T4042, while set out in a similar way a CWGC headstone isn’t actually one.

Well, yes, indeed so….! Probably not many bars would have done that, but then you don’t need many bars to make a lot of $$$$..!

But you get my point.

Had poor old Dennis Copping been sitting on top of gold bullion…

His P40 would have been over MAUW and never taken off?

Moggy

Are any of these actually CWGC markers? I thought all were private subscription memorials. There are a good many like this – such as Chart Sutton, Kent (Plt Off R H Shaw) and Newchurch, Kent (Plt Off A W Clarke) but, again, privately constructed. Again, not official war graves.

As for Gravesend, we are talking about Flt Sgt Eric Williams. Again, not a designated war grave.

I certainly recall the furore about discussing his case here and that I earned a mysterious ban for doing so – as did one of his family members! At the time, any mention of the case on this forum was banned, too.

I seem to recall a few air crash sites in the UK do have War Grave status.
A few from memory:

Whitley BD230, near Derby (Memorial/ grave marker on site).
Halifax R9438, Fitful Head, Shetland.
Defiant T4042, Hunt Law, Borders (CWGC grave marker on site).
Anson N9857, Ben More Assynt (Memorial cairn on site).

Had poor old Dennis Copping been sitting on top of gold bullion, wherever he is, then HMG would have pulled out all the stops. And then a few more.

Not forgetting that poor chap who still lies with his aircraft in Gravesend.
I intentionally haven’t named him, however, we all know who he is.

Ah, yes! The moral stance of the Government in such matters is conveniently set aside when it comes to bullion in cases such as this. Witness the saga of HMS Edinburgh.

Had poor old Dennis Copping been sitting on top of gold bullion, wherever he is, then HMG would have pulled out all the stops. And then a few more.

Reading in the papers today – a merchant ship sunk in 1941 has been salvaged 300 miles off Ireland. It went down with eighty poor souls -to my mind that would constitute a grave but it had 23 million pounds worth of silver bullion so its had 99% of that removed ! The tax payer stands to get 20% of that value with Odyssey Marine getting the rest for their efforts!