What happened with the Valiant?

I am sure the Treasury had a large say in the decision. In the 1980s, when the Bucaneers began to show signs of wing spar problems, most of the fleet was fixed.

Not entirely – a number that were too far gone were taken out of service and scrapped, some newer examples were OK without any work, I think the rest had an spar mod programme. Part of the reason the spar failures had happened was, in addition to the switch from low-level over sea to land, the effects of the wingtip extensions added on the S2. Many (but not all – Thunder City Buccs still have S2 wingtips) Buccs reverted to the shorter S1 wingtip to reduce stress.

Probably the main reason the Bucc fleet was patched up rather than being phased out was that the RAF needed them. There was no replacement or fallback available unlike with the Valiant where there were two, newer, better alternatives in service.

Errr, Meteor, Vampire, Canberra, Swift, Hunter, Comet, VC-10, etc, etc, etc, probably most types that ever flew with the RAF, including piston jobs, you could well be a very rich man by now JDK.

Exactly. Right back to ‘Scouts’ which weren’t. 😉

Sadly I’ve yet to figure out the percentage trick.

If you had sixpence for each aircraft that was tasked to do something in service that was completely different to the original design requirement, you’d have a lot more than 17 and six!

Errr, Meteor, Vampire, Canberra, Swift, Hunter, Comet, VC-10, etc, etc, etc, probably most types that ever flew with the RAF, including piston jobs, you could well be a very rich man by now JDK.

Nowt to do with design flaws. Twas the latter. mod pushing squares through round holes!

The aiframes were being used outside of their design envelope. Vickers had already voiced concern some years earlier. Hence no surprise when the first higher hour crate went, BANK…CLUNK on final approach.

Wasnt designed to be beating up hills at low alt with a full stomach!

Typical MOD really…….. brains of rocking horse poo :diablo: Anyone got any ideas as to how many Valiants went bang before they realised that there just might actually be a little problem with the Old Girls? Shame really Valiants are lovely looking aircraft, atleast we’ve still got one complete airframe though all things considered. Bex

If you had sixpence for each aircraft that was tasked to do something in service that was completely different to the original design requirement, you’d have a lot more than 17 and six!

I am sure the Treasury had a large say in the decision. In the 1980s, when the Bucaneers began to show signs of wing spar problems, most of the fleet was fixed.

By the 1960s I am absolutely sure that the Valiant was deemed surplus to requirements.

As a side isue, were the tanker Valiants showing signs of wing spar failure too? I assume they hadn’t undertaken any low flying during their service lives.

IIRC, it (Sperrin) was ordered as a stopgap in case the Valiant failed.

Yep – that’s about right. Basically a conventional design which allowed the other V-bomber designs to risk being much more radical. It had a number of novel features but was a docile and trouble free aircraft. If needed they could have been put into production without trouble. As it was the country got a couple of flying test beds.

and probably to give Short Bros something to do.

Sounds a bit harsh but probably right 🙂 It wouldn’t have been the first time that the government wanted to be seen to tackle unemployment in the province – and they had nationalised Short Brothers in 1943.

On the question of defence cuts or fatigue which took the Valiant out of service – surely both. The cost of the repairs was high so the government ordered the aircraft to be scrapped.

I don’t know how major the differences were but the sole B.2 was stressed for low-level work and it may have been possible to convert the existing fleet. Many of the Victor and Vulcan B.2s were upgrades from B.1s.

I don’t know about the Vulcans but the Victors XH668-675 were converted from B1 to B2, but this was carried out on the production line before they even left the factory. There was no upgrade of existing airframes. The changes would have been too much to carry out reasonably.

I fail to see what benefit the Sperrin could possibly have to V-bomber design. It wasn’t much more than a WW2 bomber with turbojets.

IIRC, it was ordered as a stopgap in case the Valiant failed, and probably to give Short Bros something to do.

Having no further use, it was ideal for engine testing as the spars ran between the engines, rather than around them. I assume in typical Short style, it was built like the proverbial brick – er – outhouse too.

Whilst on the subject of the late, lamented, Valiant one of the other problems it had was engine icing. In temperatures of 0 – +2 C and relative humidities of 95%+ (i.e. on a typical English Nov/Dec morning) on the take-off run the front end of the engines would accumulate a significant amount of ice. This was counteracted by bleeding off some of the hot exhaust gas and shoving back in the front end.. As much as 10% could be bled off I seem to remember. This meant that with a full fuel and bomb load a Valiant would have some considerable difficulty in getting airborne (from Wittering, for example) – if at all!. I believe trials were held with some sort of Rocket Assisted Take-Off device (similar to the JATO bottles used on Fat Albert). Does anyone have any memories of this? Was it successful? I think they did some experiments at Wittering but I was far too junior at the time to be told exactly what this highly secret trial was all about in case I wrote to the Russians and said “You can relax during Nov/Dec – we can’t come and dump a bucket of instant sunshine on you if it’s cold and foggy in UK.”!!!!
Now that would really be a sight for sore eyes at Duxford (if we had a flyable Valiant) with it thundering down the runway accompanied by smoke, flames, and sparks from the RATO!!!!
Yrs Aye
Peter Davies

While everybody is remembering the Valiant, and rightly so, let’s not forget that Short Bros. almost beat Vickers to the punch with the Sperrin. The two prototypes were used to carry out trials that would be of benefit to V-bomber design and operation. I remember seeing one of them (VX158) flying from Hatfield when fitted with De Havilland Gyron engines – but as I was only a snotty-nosed brat at the time I didn’t realise the significance of what I’d seen (ah, the joys of hindsight).

Twas one aiframe only. WZ394 that induced a seriously smelly brown Y front moment.

well why on earth dont they power these old aircraft up once in a while? it certainly drives out corrosion and keeps out the damp! i know its probably easier said than done, but still, worth thinking about maybe? 😀

No, he means Hendon. The Valiant was only moved to Cosford last year.

That’s right before going to Hendon it spent a few years sitting at Marham and just before it was moved to Hendon the story I was told it someone powered it up just to see what would happen and all the systems started.

I am unsure about exactly where the spar cracking happened in the wing, outboard of the engines it had fairly conventional spar booms and stressed skin, while the centre section had forged spectacle shaped structures with openings for intake and jet pipes, I suspect it was here that the problem occured.
This site has a bit more detail of the wing fault http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/valiant/history.html
Our knowledge of aircraft structural design has come on a long way from the Valient, other designs from the same period had fatigue faults, sometimes they were repairable sometomes not. For example the Viscount wing spars were lifed and had to be changed at a certain flying hours. Shackleton and Pembroke the same.

[QUOTE=mjr;1114616
Nowt to do with design flaws. Twas the latter. mod pushing squares through round holes!

The aiframes were being used outside of their design envelope. Vickers had already voiced concern some years earlier. Hence no surprise when the first higher hour crate went, BANK…CLUNK on final approach.

Wasnt designed to be beating up hills at low alt with a full stomach!:([/QUOTE]

Typical MOD really…….. brains of rocking horse poo :diablo: Anyone got any ideas as to how many Valiants went bang before they realised that there just might actually be a little problem with the Old Girls? Shame really Valiants are lovely looking aircraft, atleast we’ve still got one complete airframe though all things considered. Bex

[QUOTE=CSheppardholedi;1114596]Makes one wonder. Was it a design flaw, engineered too close to the margin for safety and longevity of operational life (which often happens on the bleeding edge of technology) or was it the change in operational profile that doomed the A/C?

Nowt to do with design flaws. Twas the latter. mod pushing squares through round holes!

The aiframes were being used outside of their design envelope. Vickers had already voiced concern some years earlier. Hence no surprise when the first higher hour crate went, BANK…CLUNK on final approach.

Wasnt designed to be beating up hills at low alt with a full stomach!:(

No, he means Hendon. The Valiant was only moved to Cosford last year.

It’s quite possible defence cuts may have been why they were scrapped and not repaired.

I don’t know how major the differences were but the sole B.2 was stressed for low-level work and it may have been possible to convert the existing fleet. Many of the Victor and Vulcan B.2s were upgrades from B.1s.

do you mean cosford there? i thought that they had the only complete example of a valiant. the systems were operable? wow thats pretty awesome!!!

Makes one wonder. Was it a design flaw, engineered too close to the margin for safety and longevity of operational life (which often happens on the bleeding edge of technology) or was it the change in operational profile that doomed the A/C?

The B-52 is of about the same vintage, at least the initial design, and a bunch of those birds are still flying. Granted, they have been reengineered, upgraded and rebuilt from nose to tail. They are older than the crews flying them!

No, the primary reason for the decision was the wings were likely to fall off.

Nothing to serious then 🙂

Im sure I was once told that just prior to the Valiant moving to Hendon someone decided to power it up and found a lot of its electrical system was still working despite the fact it had spent a fair amount of time sitting outside without any work being done to it.