What is a "private venture", re. Mosquito genesis?

Oops, yes I did, but on re-reading the appropriate pages a better term would be studies for a fast bomber, as a continuation from earlier thinking on larger types. The driver behind these studies was Ludlow-Hewitt, but it was thought necessary to have a tail turret and this was indeed on earlier DH studies. Both AW and Avro had contracts for smaller fast designs with “flush” turrets, whatever that may mean, and it seems that it was Freeman who finally grasped the nettle and asked for an unarmed design from DH, smaller still than the previous work. Interestingly Ludlow-Hewitt was dismissive of the possibilities of so small a bomber but thought it might have some use for reconnaissance – he was certainly dead right there!

Graham-I presume you mean “unarmed” not “unmanned?”? 🙂
Am I right in recalling that the Messenger was the result of a very “unofficial” specification from certain Army officers, and subsequently ordered without Air Min approval? I also seem to remember that the Air Min were understandably upset, but eventually ordered the Messenger formally due to its manifest qualities as a STOL VIP transport.

For a fuller background there is one book that stands out above all others – The RAF and Aircraft Design 1923-1939: Air Staff Operational Requirements by Colin Sinnott. This should be read by everyone interested in the subject. As said above, there was considerable interplay between the Services, the Establishments and the companies long before any official specification was raised or pencil laid to drawing paper. True private ventures in a classic sense were rare to non-existent, at least since the Fairey Fox (not sure about the Fantome, I dare say there are few others before the late thirties) but below this there was plenty of room for free-thinking and dealing by companies.

With particular respect to the Mosquito, there’d been fluctuating interest in a fast bomber for many years, with ideas being studied by the RAE and a design roughed-out by Handley Page before De Havilland entered the picture. This doesn’t mean that the particular Mosquito design itself was based on any of this work other than being created out of the “whirlpool”: however much of this background the designers were aware of. The distinctive feature has to be the wooden construction chosen because DH had the expertise and craftsmen available rather than because of any ideal. What they did with it was superb, but it was backed by officialdom all the way. In the particular shape of Wilfred Freeman, in charge of providing new projects and production for the RAF.

And

I’ve always had the simplistic view that various foresighted people and companies had the tenacity to bankroll such things as Schneider Cup racers, Spitfire fighters and Mosquito fighter-bombers, and without them the RAF would have been flying Gladiators and Ansons. Is that a vast oversimplification?

Yes, simplistic. (Incidentally one particularly attractive to the a US or business-orientated view also.)

Again one can point to examples of good ideas driven to success by designers and aircraft companies or the Air Min, and other ~now called~stakeholders. Obviously the government was the buyer, so gatekeeper, so did cherrypick for purchase some good ideas from all origination (and some duds, too). All* the aircraft that entered RAF and RN FAA and Army service were bought or otherwise acquired via the state. There weren’t privateer RAF units!

Regards,

*Obvious exceptions like captured and found aircraft aside. Those rarely influenced battles.

In reply to the O/Ps actual question, the evidence points to the concept that there was a continuum from manufactures offering designs to Air Min requirements all the way to the other extreme of wacky ideas the designer though the military ought to want (See Miles Libellula for the latter).

In between there are examples of every degree of designer – Air Min agreement from specs, tenders, suggestions in writing, and handshakes, nods and winks, to designers going up garden paths.

Smart aircraft manufacturers worked as near to the specification-response end of that line as they could get.

You also want Alert Ken’s input.

Regards,

Edited to add – Talking 1930-45 here.

In the UK the Schneider racers were fully government funded from 1926 through to 1930 and for 1924-5 there was agreement that any racer that participated would subsequently be purchased by the Air Ministry. Only the early races and 1931 were funded entirely by the manufacturers or other sponsors.

The Miles Messenger is a good example of a wartime private venture project.

A private venture is when a company designs and builds a product using its own funds without any order or request from customers to do so. PV products are then demonstrated to potential customers in the hope of gaining orders.

It has often been the case tho with the MOD that they give strong hints as to what they might buy if only they have prototype to play with first-allegedly!

and if we sold it we made dam sure all our investment was recouped with the initial order!

All ‘private-ventures’ are presumably intended to chase some form of, usually government, order (whether a specification has been written or not); I don’t know if it stands scrutiny but I’d say the real definition of a private-venture is a project that deliberately breaks one of the stipulations in a specification…..and not in a good way.

For example, if the Mosquito had been proposed for a metal-skinned light-bomber specification, or the Spitfire for a biplane specification.