What is the RAFs last recorded kill?

The question been………what is the last aircraft or helicopter that the RAF shot down IN FLIGHT. Not aircraft on runways please people.

Probably our friend Lloyd, ex-RAF Regiment with a Rapier against a Jindi 😉

Didn’t we shoot down a Mig during Gulf War 1?

DJJ,

I’d like to take issue with a couple of points. According to the book that I quoted previously, any engagements with the Israelis in the late forties were entirely one sided, and not in the RAF’s favour.

Sorry, fouled up the editing of my post (trying to cut the length down). The kill was against the Egyptians, and the pilot concerned, Tim McElhaw, went on to be shot down by the Israelis. I was trying to say that the RAF maintained neutrality by fighting both sides in 48, but hurried editing put paid to that as I amalgamated my points. Bother 🙁

I wasn’t saying that the Indonesian C-130 had occurred – however, a member of 60 Squadron at the time is 95% convinced that it did. Otherwise why did a Javelin RTB minus a Firestreak on the same night as the C-130 went down, he asks…? I don’t know, but it suggests that the story may still have some validity.

As for the IFF issues with the F3s restraining their pushing over the border ith the F-15s, I’m er… being….er… general about it in a non-specific way that will ensure gentlemen driving black Vauxhall Omegas don’t arrive at my house and invite themselves in for a quick chat. There is, however, merit in the view that there was a degree of politics in the decision not to send them ‘sausage side’; likewise, it’s usually argued by those involved that the decision to put a Saudi F-15 onto the Mirage F1s was because of a desire that the F-15 (again) should get the glory, while it would allow the Saudis to show that they were pulling their weight, etc, etc.

Finally, my point about mistasking the GR3 was again confusing caused by some poor editing in haste. The point I was attempting to make is best explained by reading Jerry Pook’s book – in brief, though, mistasking in the sense that the ‘fisheads’ failed to exploit the GR3s as well as they could have and sent them off on sorties that were pointless – for instance, demanding that an early sortie with LGB be brought forward, despite the fact that the FAC couldn’t be told of this, so the bombs couldn’t be guided onto the target, because the FAC wouldn’t be there to do so. RN response was along the line of ‘you have your orders, get on with it’ the waste of two PW notwithstanding. Now that’s mistasking….

My Money is still on one of the RAF pilots flying Sea harriers in the falklands
unless they’ve been up to good somewere else and not telling:D
Regards Phil.

Incidentally, when RAF crews, ie: the great Mr Hannah, were flying with the Omani etc airforces in the 60’s, were not a/c engaged then, and were not the a/c, presumably Hunters, on loan from the RAF, it’s not a sphere of operations I know much about.

8 and 43 Squadrons (at least) were based there during that times, and there was reported (in Flypast) gun camera footage of Hunter cannon strikes on a Yemen Mig 15/17, bt not a confirmed destruction. As the said Hunter was ‘over the border’ where it shouldn’t be, the question was never pursued.

Well, wasn’t that what I was hinting at earlier, was it also not true that a Saudi F-15 with a lot of help from other sources shot down 2 Iraqi a/c with 2 simultaneous Sidewinder launches.

Yes, I don’t suppose Boeing (McDonnell Douglas) had any problem with the fact that AWACS vectored all those F-15 kills against Iraqi aircraft during the Gulf War (even when piloted by RSAF crews). :diablo:

What IFF issues?

No IFF issue seemed to stop the RAF Tornado GR1, Jaguar and Buccaneer crews pushing deep into Iraq for the far more hazardous (and far less glamorous) ground attack missions.

My guess is that another coalition partner wanted to make sure that it was their crews, flying their aircraft, that got all the air-to-air kills. Just my opinion of course.

Well, wasn’t that what I was hinting at earlier, was it also not true that a Saudi F-15 with a lot of help from other sources shot down 2 Iraqi a/c with 2 simultaneous Sidewinder launches.

Incidentally, when RAF crews, ie: the great Mr Hannah, were flying with the Omani etc airforces in the 60’s, were not a/c engaged then, and were not the a/c, presumably Hunters, on loan from the RAF, it’s not a sphere of operations I know much about.

It would have been interesting if the practised intercepts between Lightnings and Indonesian P-51’s had taken place, would the Indonesian pilots have sussed it out I wonder, and what would have been the success rate for any of them.

[QUOTE=

My guess is that another coalition partner wanted to make sure that it was their crews, flying their aircraft, that got all the air-to-air kills. Just my opinion of course.[/QUOTE]

Thats what i’ve allways believed. 😡

During Desert Storm, the F3s didn’t push into Iraq because of IFF issues, and they flew defensive CAP. Two were pulled off an attack against Iraqi Mirage F1s that were running towards naval assets to allow them to be engaged by Saudi F-15s, much to the RAF’s irritation – not least since there are strong suggestions that the F-15s, faced with several F-1s, bodged the attack which allowed at least one Mirage to escape.

What IFF issues?

No IFF issue seemed to stop the RAF Tornado GR1, Jaguar and Buccaneer crews pushing deep into Iraq for the far more hazardous (and far less glamorous) ground attack missions.

My guess is that another coalition partner wanted to make sure that it was their crews, flying their aircraft, that got all the air-to-air kills. Just my opinion of course.

Although the RN never mentions it for some reason, Lt Cdr Dave Morgan DSC RN (rtd) was Flt Lt Dave Morgan RAF at the time of the Falklands. It now appears to be generally accepted that he had four kills from the conflict, and was thus highest scorer

Last time I saw him (we had shares in an aircraft together) , the sleeve badge on his flight suit definitely recorded a half kill. But at this distance some ten years on I can’t recall if it was three and a half or four and a half.

Moggy

Flt Lt Leeming (RAF) shot down a skyhawk on 21/5/82 while flying a sea harrier.

Although the RN never mentions it for some reason, Lt Cdr Dave Morgan DSC RN (rtd) was Flt Lt Dave Morgan RAF at the time of the Falklands. It now appears to be generally accepted that he had four kills from the conflict, and was thus highest scorer.

The RAF provided about a quarter of the SHAR pilots and they scored about a quarter of the aerial victories.

The official position is that the last ‘enemy’ aircraft that the RAF shot down was in 1948, and it was Israeli in the series of engagements that took place at that time (the RAF maintained its neutrality by shooting down some Egyptians, as DD notes).

After that, despite the banter, the RAF hasn’t had the chance to engage in air combat. RAF fighters weren’t deployed to Korea and the next major conflict in which the RAF participated in which there was air-air action was the Falklands. If you read Jerry Pook’s recent book, you’ll get an idea of how effectively the RN used the GR3s (as a hint there are two chapters called ‘#More Navy C*ck Ups’ and ‘Yet More Navy C*ck Ups’ ), which were (mis)tasked purely on ground attack and recce missions.

During Desert Storm, the F3s didn’t push into Iraq because of IFF issues, and they flew defensive CAP. Two were pulled off an attack against Iraqi Mirage F1s that were running towards naval assets to allow them to be engaged by Saudi F-15s, much to the RAF’s irritation – not least since there are strong suggestions that the F-15s, faced with several F-1s, bodged the attack which allowed at least one Mirage to escape.

Unofficially, there is some fairly strong circumstantial evidence that an Indonesian C-130 was brought down by a Javelin during the Confrontation and slightly less robust evidence that a Hunter gave an Indonesian MiG-17 the good news in another engagement that was hushed-up.

Finally, there is disupte over whether a Tornado GR1 ought to be credited with a kill over a MiG-29. The MiG was hit by a JP233 munition, and there is some evidence that it had just taken off when it was hit, and thus counts as a kill. The consensus seems to be that it is technically an air-air kill, but not in the spirit of air combat (aircraft needs to be brought down by something being aimed in his general direction, not by colliding with incoming ordnance).

DJJ,

I’d like to take issue with a couple of points. According to the book that I quoted previously, any engagements with the Israelis in the late forties were entirely one sided, and not in the RAF’s favour.

The circumstantial evidence of the downing of the Indonesian C-130 is exactly that – circumstantial. I recall that this one was laid to rest a while back on another forum by someone who was on the Javelin QRA that night. Stooging around at low level at night where they weren’t supposed to be, the Indonesians probably didn’t need anyone else’s help in losing an aeroplane. I hadn’t heard of the Hunter v Indonesian MiG17 story, though there is a similar tale from Aden, concerning the North Yemenis, IIRC.

I agree with what you say about Desert Storm, and I would venture a guess that the F.3 crews would have acquitted themselves well in the Iraqi turkey shoot, had it not been for the very real danger of being shot down by friendly forces. I have also heard that the Saudi F-15 crew you mention were talked through the whole engagement by the USAF.

Although the RN never mentions it for some reason, Lt Cdr Dave Morgan DSC RN (rtd) was Flt Lt Dave Morgan RAF at the time of the Falklands. It now appears to be generally accepted that he had four kills from the conflict, and was thus highest scorer.

The RAF provided about a quarter of the SHAR pilots and they scored about a quarter of the aerial victories.

The official position is that the last ‘enemy’ aircraft that the RAF shot down was in 1948, and it was Israeli in the series of engagements that took place at that time (the RAF maintained its neutrality by shooting down some Egyptians, as DD notes).

After that, despite the banter, the RAF hasn’t had the chance to engage in air combat. RAF fighters weren’t deployed to Korea and the next major conflict in which the RAF participated in which there was air-air action was the Falklands. If you read Jerry Pook’s recent book, you’ll get an idea of how effectively the RN used the GR3s (as a hint there are two chapters called ‘#More Navy C*ck Ups’ and ‘Yet More Navy C*ck Ups’ ), which were (mis)tasked purely on ground attack and recce missions.

During Desert Storm, the F3s didn’t push into Iraq because of IFF issues, and they flew defensive CAP. Two were pulled off an attack against Iraqi Mirage F1s that were running towards naval assets to allow them to be engaged by Saudi F-15s, much to the RAF’s irritation – not least since there are strong suggestions that the F-15s, faced with several F-1s, bodged the attack which allowed at least one Mirage to escape.

Unofficially, there is some fairly strong circumstantial evidence that an Indonesian C-130 was brought down by a Javelin during the Confrontation and slightly less robust evidence that a Hunter gave an Indonesian MiG-17 the good news in another engagement that was hushed-up.

Finally, there is disupte over whether a Tornado GR1 ought to be credited with a kill over a MiG-29. The MiG was hit by a JP233 munition, and there is some evidence that it had just taken off when it was hit, and thus counts as a kill. The consensus seems to be that it is technically an air-air kill, but not in the spirit of air combat (aircraft needs to be brought down by something being aimed in his general direction, not by colliding with incoming ordnance).

Sorry, but not only were some off the Sea Harrier crews RAF pilots, which should count, but the GR-3’s were mixing it as well, didn’t one shoot down a helicopter or Pucara.
I was going to mention the Korean Mig kill, but it’s those bloody ‘Skates’ again, bless em.
Life won’t be worth living for the RAF when Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales come into service, not traditional carrier names incidentally I must add, whats wrong with this country, abandoning tradition again.

Severn RAF pilots flew Sea harriers in the Falkland and shot down a few Fast jets, which is what i was hinting at in my first post.:D
Regards Phil.

Re RAF pilots in Sea Harriers what can I say other than smart ar3e 😉

RAF Pete, Sea Harriers are Royal Navy 😀

The question when it started was assuming that the aircraft/helicopter would have been shot down in combat.

But we couldn’t remember anything been shot down during the Gulf or on any other operations. So maybe it is the correct answer?

We would be interested to know a “last shot down intentionally” answer though.

Sorry, but not only were some off the Sea Harrier crews RAF pilots, which should count, but the GR-3’s were mixing it as well, didn’t one shoot down a helicopter or Pucara.
I was going to mention the Korean Mig kill, but it’s those bloody ‘Skates’ again, bless em.
Life won’t be worth living for the RAF when Queen Elizabeth and Prince of Wales come into service, not traditional carrier names incidentally I must add, whats wrong with this country, abandoning tradition again.

RAF Pete, Sea Harriers are Royal Navy 😀

The question when it started was assuming that the aircraft/helicopter would have been shot down in combat.

But we couldn’t remember anything been shot down during the Gulf or on any other operations. So maybe it is the correct answer?

We would be interested to know a “last shot down intentionally” answer though.

Did you mean RAF aircrew manning a Royal Air Force squadron aircraft, rather than RN? That rules out the Falklands.

And if the original question was concerning an intentional kill in combat against an enemy, rather than a bit of dumb finger trouble….. I think you have to go back a lot further than that F4/Jag incident.

All the way back to 22nd May 1947: two Egyptian Spitfires attacking Ramat David airfield in Palestine were shot down by RAF Spitfire FR.18s from, I think, 32 or 208 Sqns, or a combination of both.

Ramat David was still occupied by the British, in the process of withdrawal from the ensuing Arab-Israeli War. Earlier that day Egyptian raids had destroyed five Spitfires and a Dakota on the ground at the airfield; the Egyptians later claimed that they had thought that the Israelis had already taken the field over. (From ‘British Aircraft in Combat Since 1945’ by David Oliver.)

Fair enough, but how about a shooting down in anger, that must have been a Sea Harrier in the Falklands War, considering the number of conflicts we have been involved in since, that’s amazing, though I doubt whether we have carried out many ops in the intercept field. I once read somewhere that the USAF were not happy with the fighting qualities of the Tornado F3 and that they were relegated to last ditch duties in defence of the AWACS and tankers during the first Gulf War at least, let alone anything since.
I should think the advent of the Typhoon will change all that, it looks pretty potent to me.

Actually, I have a vague recollection of a pilot accidentally ejecting from a Harrier somewhere over the south west, wasn’t it shot down while heading out to sea, before it was allowed to plummet onto an unsuspecting ferry for Roscoff, don’t tell me, there happened to be the Nimitz in the area with a full compliment of F-14’s.

Oh sorry i thought you were talking about combat and not FF:D
Regards Phil.

Your a star Damien.

Actually kicking myself for not knowing especially as had read the story many times in Last of The Phantoms book.