What qualified an ace?

Dave and others – take a look at p19 of the latest (May) FlyPast. There’s an ad there for/by a UK aviation artist by the name of Robin Smith. He’s involved in an apparently “significant event” at East Kirkby on May 2nd and inter alia he will be releasing his latest work “Sunset Saviours” representing the Lancaster of Wallace McIntosh – record holder for most Bomber Command kills from rear turret (8 kills). Note McIntosh is referred to as “record holder” not Ace.

I’ve noted his website url and a small image of the said print – trust he’ll appreciate the free publicity!

http://www.robin-smith-aviation-art.co.uk/mayevent.htm

IIRC the USAAF regarded strafing e/a on the ground as ‘kills’, the RAF did not.

AS Oscar Duck says, before anyone regards this as ‘cheap shots’ ground attack was often as or more dangerous than an air battle. The RAF lost a lot of valuable skilled fighter pilots on gound attack in the ‘leaning into Europe’ campaign of ’41 to ’44 – Bob Stanford Tuck being just one of those ‘aces’.

However machines in wartime are cheap. Putting the enemy’s skilled people out of action, or better still wounding them to increase the cost on the enemy’s resources is the ‘best’ way of conducting a war. So killing, wounding or capturing the enemy pilot and/or crew is, in military terms the key objective. They cost a lot of money and time to train. Thus an air to air kill is going to be more valuable than a destoyed aircraft. Unpleasant topic, eh?

“Our young men have to shoot down their young men at a rate of…”

Hi Dave,
As ever your innocent question wades into a complex and ill defined area full of argument. :cool:.

Yes, my specialty, as you well know 😀

If the nightfighter was guided to it’s target by an onboard radar operator,would the radar operator be classed as an ace or the crew recognised as an “ace” crew.If it was’nt for his imput the pilot would’nt have made the 5 kills.

But the onboard airborne radar operator only hooked onto the target from around a mile out, before then they were directed in blind by a ground radar operator. So, does that mean the grouny is also an ace? Where will it all end?

This is jolly interesting though, thanks everyone.

Also remember this>>>>It was very dangerous no matter how you did it, air to air or air to mud>>

Then there was Lt Frank Luke of WW1 fame who wrote of more than 5 aircraft and his CO wryly suggested that he was now an “ace”….for the other side!

Did ground kills have any bearing on the subject? Might there have been some fighter pilots who were more successful in strafing attacks than air-to-air, and in such cases would they have been classed as aces?
Would Warburton have been flying alone or in squadron formation when he made his claims? How much easier would it have been to claim a shoot-down if you only had your own crew to give witness? – Nermal

If the nightfighter was guided to it’s target by an onboard radar operator,would the radar operator be classed as an ace or the crew recognised as an “ace” crew.If it was’nt for his imput the pilot would’nt have made the 5 kills.

I have Peter Hinchcliffe’s “The other Battle” on my bookshelves. A great book about the night airwar over Europe in WWII. In it he comments on this issue, and although I’m not quoting I think I’m right in saying that it was the nightfighter crew who were recognised officially. However, it tended to be so-and-so and his Funker who became idolised by the public (ie. the pilot became the hero with his faithful sidekick – think Batman and Robin). The top scoring night fighter pilots were no less well known in WWII Germany than pop stars these days.

And bear in mind that there were always three parties to every kill – the ground controller was the key guide – he (typically he) got the fighter into the position where it had an opportunity to complete the interception. Hinchcliffe makes much of this point and the strong relationships that built up between the night fighter crews and their controllers – they were very much a team.

Can’t comment re. RAF or USAAF..

Some years ago there was an article in AM about airgunner aces, I can’t find that issue the moment, but if I remember well the top ace shot down 13 german aircraft May/june 1940 flying Boulton Paul Defiant. Some time later he and his pilot were shot down and both got killed.
I´ll try to find that AM issue.

best regards,

Mathieu

My understanding is that this was not something that the RAF tended to encourage, as mentioned by JDK earlier, whereas the Luftwaffe tended to do so because of their various awards (Knight’s Cross, Oak Leaves, Diamonds etc) which would be gained by increased “kills”. Also, I think it was probably more to do with the press using this as a morale booster for the public, althgough I am open to be told I am wrong (viz the “Cats Eyes” story for John Cunningham, which he always maintained was incorrect and down to the teamwork between himself and Jimmy Rawnsley).

If the nightfighter was guided to it’s target by an onboard radar operator,would the radar operator be classed as an ace or the crew recognised as an “ace” crew.If it was’nt for his imput the pilot would’nt have made the 5 kills.

Interesting point. And by the same token, had the crew not been guided to the vicinity of the raider, it is doubtful the rudimentary AI would have been enough alone, except in circumstances of extreme chance.

Regards, kev35

If the nightfighter was guided to it’s target by an onboard radar operator,would the radar operator be classed as an ace or the crew recognised as an “ace” crew.If it was’nt for his imput the pilot would’nt have made the 5 kills.

Hi Dave,
As ever your innocent question wades into a complex and ill defined area full of argument. 😎

The ‘Ace’ status was never officially recognised by the RFC and later the RAF were always very ambivilent about it.

My understanding was that there was always an informal understanding – ‘so and so’s an ace’ and five e/a downed was the general measure (for Commonwealth forces). Variations came up for night fighters, other air forces etc. IIRC Defiant Gunners qualifed as ‘aces’ but the crew issue was even more critical there.

There was a more formal understanding required for the issue of medals, and though not linked directly, medal winners were often (by winning medals) seen as aces as well.

Many people have tried to discredit German ace claims, always lacking conviction IMHO, and USAAF gunners were often regarded as overclaiming kills. No reflection on their honesty, but that as one a/c was shot down while being shot at by hundreds of gunners, everyone believed they had a case! RAF night bomber gunners were less high claimants, thus the gunner ace issue came up a lot moree rarely, and the conflict in numbers was less of an issue as they were usually single aircraft attacks. In both cases, and many others, proving ‘destruction’ rather than ‘damage’ was very hard, as the crash of the e/a was rarely going to be seen.

That’s my best take on a humungous arena.

Perhaps this will shed some light on the subject …

Nope – just talks about fighter pilots and doesn’t address Dave’s questions at all

Perhaps this will shed some light on the subject

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mantis/FW/Bob/Aces.htm

Weren’t RAF Nightfighter pilots classed as an ace if they achieved 3 confirmed kills ?

Interesting stories. I hope someone canclear up these points.

If the pilot claims a kill his gunner got, to me that’s like a fielder taking a spectacular catch in cricket and the wicket is attributed to the bowler, no matter how bad his bowl might have been.

“Unfortunately, the Germans don’t play cricket, if they did, they’d be on our side.” (Captain. G. Mainwaring)

Hi,

In Chris Shores book Aces High Wg Cdr Adrian Warburton is shown with 7 destroyed, 1 probable, 6 damaged and 3 destroyed on the ground. The claimes date from 12 October 1940 to 10 Jul 1943.

From 12 October 1940 until 29 September 1942 Adrian flew Marylands from Malta. Later he flew Spitfire V’s and IX’s.

On reading through the brief bio the claims were made up from using the front guns, turrets guns or a combination of both.

On the 9th July a MC200 was probably damaged by one of the gunners, although this appears in Adrians claims.

So does this mean that the claim went to the aircraft rather than the crew and the fact that Adrian was captain of the aircraft then they would show up in his tally?

I have also read somewhere of gunners claiming a couple of kills going on to fighters to claim 2-3 more to become and ace.

If gunners became aces wouldn’t we have heard more about them? Or is it because there is something personal about taking on an enemy aircraft one-to-one and coming out on top?

Alex