What was the best Sabre Model?

Looking at Hoover’s career -he flew combat sorties with them – demonstrated them and did the first flight of the XFJ-2 . I feel like taking his word on what is the best of the breed .

The whole piont was what exactly did Mr. Hoover say and in what context??? Also, comparing the XFJ-2 is hardly valid to this discussion. As the FJ-4B was a totally different machine! That would be like comparing a Allison powered P-51A with a Merlin/RR powered P-51D maybe even H!:cool:

Looking at Hoover’s career -he flew combat sorties with them – demonstrated them and did the first flight of the XFJ-2 . I feel like taking his word on what is the best of the breed .

RE: Bob Hoover and his comments on CAC Sabres….

Remember Hoover’s occupation in the 50s was a NA test pilot.
I’d be surprised if he didn’t fly one…or at the very least have detailed conversations with those who did.
Also his judgement could have come from an educated guess based on his intimate knowlege of the earlier models and the changes made by CAC.

Fighters are rather like sports cars, more power is rarely a bad thing.:D

Either way, I’d value Mr. Hoover’s opinion above just about anyone else.

And remember that these high assessments of Canadian and Aussie Sabres doen’t mean that their designers were any smarter than the NA guys…recall that post “F” model, NA (and the USAF) were busy with the F-100 as a day fighter…and saw no need in stretching out the F-86 design.
Just think, the Mustang, Sabre and Super Sabre…three “hits” in a row…not a bad average.

Mr. Hoover is highly respected know doubt. I’ve even had the privilege of meeting him a couple of times over the years. Yet, my point was depending on the context of his statement. Otherwise, his statement could mean a number of things……………..(i.e. Best Landbased, Best of all Model of the Sarbe including Naval Variants, Best Non-US Model, etc. etc.)

Remember Hoover’s occupation in the 50s was a NA test pilot.
I’d be surprised if he didn’t fly one…or at the very least have detailed conversations with those who did.
Also his judgement could have come from an educated guess based on his intimate knowlege of the earlier models and the changes made by CAC.

Good point. I’d nevertheless be interested if a) a CAC Sabre went to the US or RA Bob came out to Aus.

Either way, I’d value Mr. Hoover’s opinion above just about anyone else.

Quite. He’s unarguably in the front ranks of test and show pilots, in anyone’s book. And a gentleman, I understand, as well. Not a claim you can make for everyone at that level.

And remember that these high assessments of Canadian and Aussie Sabres doen’t mean that their designers were any smarter than the NA guys…

Absolutely. It’s a pointless game trying ‘these guys were better than those guys’ in a case like this where the design is an iteration of an existing design. And hence my post. IMHO, part of best, and in real world military (and civil) requirements, that’s the right ‘plane at the right time. The CAC Sabre was lovely, but a bit late.

Cheers

Quite true while Canada and Australia develped their versions of the Sabre NA had moved on. The F100 Super Sabre had been in development since 1951 and I believe it went operational in 1954 after some early teething problems. Its perfromance was superior to any of the other Sabre variants.

Maximum speed: 750 kn (864 mph, 1,390 km/h)
Range: 1,733 NM (1,995 mi, 3,210 km)
Service ceiling 50,000 ft (15,000 m)
Rate of climb: 22,400 ft/min (114 m/s)
Guns: 4× 20 mm (0.787 in) M39 cannon
Missiles:

4× AIM-9 Sidewinder or
GAM-83 Bullpup
Bombs: 7,040 lb (3,190 kg) of weapons, including
Conventional bombs or
Mark 7 nuclear bomb[14] or
Mk 28 nuclear bomb[14] or
Mk 38 nuclear bomb[14] or
Mk 43 nuclear bomb[14] or
Mk 57 nuclear bomb[citation needed] or
Mk 61 nuclear bomb[citation needed] nuclear weapons

Interesting discussion.
Steve

RE: Bob Hoover and his comments on CAC Sabres….

When did he get his mitts on on one? Can you provide a source for that comment?

Remember Hoover’s occupation in the 50s was a NA test pilot.
I’d be surprised if he didn’t fly one…or at the very least have detailed conversations with those who did.
Also his judgement could have come from an educated guess based on his intimate knowlege of the earlier models and the changes made by CAC.

Fighters are rather like sports cars, more power is rarely a bad thing.:D

Either way, I’d value Mr. Hoover’s opinion above just about anyone else.

And remember that these high assessments of Canadian and Aussie Sabres doen’t mean that their designers were any smarter than the NA guys…recall that post “F” model, NA (and the USAF) were busy with the F-100 as a day fighter…and saw no need in stretching out the F-86 design.
Just think, the Mustang, Sabre and Super Sabre…three “hits” in a row…not a bad average.

Bob Hoover put the CAC Sabre ahead of the rest.
For the record, the RAAF only operated the Meteor in Korea.

Of course Bob Hoover likely was not including the Fury in that claim? Do we even know if he ever flew the Navy Model??? (i.e. FJ-4B)

Welcome to the forum! 😀

Bob Hoover put the CAC Sabre ahead of the rest.

When did he get his mitts on on one? Can you provide a source for that comment? I know Hoover came to Australia a few years ago after he’d temporarily lost his US licence, due to FAA age issues, but I didn’t know he’d played with one earlier.

For the record, the RAAF only operated the Meteor in Korea.

Strictly speaking, the RAAF operated Mustangs, and wanted NA Sabres, but the dollar balance didn’t allow it, and so the (lovely but-) inadequate F-8 Meatbox was supplied direct. We lost several good men, and other were tortured due to that use of an inferior ‘fighter’ in Korea.
Cheers

Bob Hoover put the CAC Sabre ahead of the rest.
For the record, the RAAF only operated the Meteor in Korea.

John’s right Graeme came from this site:
http://daveg4otu.tripod.com/nos10.html
An event never to be seen again ?
Bob Duncan’s painting of the sword in action.
Steve

Nice picture K225. What’s the story behind it?

Graeme

My guess, Coronation review, RAF Odiham, 1953.

John

Cribbed from RAF Odiham site:-

“One of RAF Odiham’s most memorable days was 15 July 1953, when, as part of the nationwide Coronation ceremonies, the Queen and Prince Philip reviewed the Royal Air Force at Odiham. The static display comprised 318 aircraft, and another 641 flew past in salute.”

Nice picture K225. What’s the story behind it?

Graeme

Britain obtained three Mk 2 Sabres for the RAF in October 1952. These were loaned ahead of the delivery of 428 Sabre Mk 4s. The Sabre Mk 4s were delivered from December 1952 to December 1953. They were supplied to the Royal Air Force for use in Germany as Britain’s contribution to the NATO effort. The RAF kept Canadair’s mark numbers, but rendered them in British style as F.2 and F.4. The Royal Air Force’s Sabres were built in Canada and mainly based in Germany as part of NATO’s 2nd Allied Tactical Air Force. The RAF had some experience of the type before it was introduced into service since British pilots like the Canadians had flown with the Americans in Korea. A number of MiG-15 aircraft had been downed by the Royal Air Force pilots. Most pilots found the Sabre a delight to fly and many expressed disappointment when they were replaced by the Swift and early marks of the Hunter.

In the spring of 1955 the first Hunters began to arrive in Germany, completely replacing Sabres by June 1956. The Sabres were returned to the Americans who passed them on to the Italian and Yugoslav Air Forces.

I read somewhere that during the 50’s the USAF Sabres in Europe were always given a good seeing to by the CAF Canadair built examples during exercises, not a happy situation to be in when your own country designed the thing, was this not from Chuck Yeagers own memoirs.
Weren’t the RAF Hunter stop gap examples all Canadair built because they were considered superior.
I remember being treated to a supersonic flyby by a group of Canadian Sabres at Newton Airshow, circa 1956, several windows were smashed, that was an experience not to be forgotten, even after all these years.

Two sidewinders and two 30mm of course. And in RAAF use in Korea, while we are having a pointless discussion.

The ‘best’ aircraft is the one available and capable to do the job when you need it.

I never considered the discussion pointless………..Especially, with our Australian friends. Trust me we always have your back!:D

Let’s see………………6-50 cals, 4-20mm, or 2-30mm???? What’s your favorite???:rolleyes:

Two sidewinders and two 30mm of course. And in RAAF use in Korea, while we are having a pointless discussion.

The ‘best’ aircraft is the one available and capable to do the job when you need it.

Let’s see………………6-50 cals, 4-20mm, or 2-30mm???? What’s your favorite???:rolleyes:

The three advantages the “Hotel-Sabre” had over the rest of the USAF versions were:

1. 4 x 20mm cannon replaced the 6 x .50cal MGs (after the first 60), but with only 150 rpg.

2. The GE J47 (5,970 lb.s.t.) was replaced by the GE J73 (8,920 lb.s.t.). In order to accommodate the additional power of the engine, the air intake had to be increased in area, which was accomplished by splitting the fuselage longitudinally and then splicing in an additional six inches of depth.

3.In addition, the fuselage was lengthened by over two feet and widened by a few inches. The additional space inside the fuselage made it possible to increase the internal fuel capacity from 435 to 562 gallons, and four underwing stations were added for bombs or drop tanks.

More info:
Development of a purely fighter-bomber version of the Sabre was initiated by North American Aviation on March 16, 1951 as the NA-187.

An F-86D-like clamshell cockpit canopy was fitted in place of the rearward-sliding canopy of the F-86F. The cockpit was more spacious than that of any previous Sabre variant, and had a new ejector seat originally developed for the F-86D.

While it was faster climbing, carried a heavier payload, and had better A-G gunnery than other USAF Sabres, its heavier weight meant it was less maneuverable than the -F model, which remained the best day fighter of them all.

My “wish-list” would see the last 1/3 of the CAC Sabre production run fitted with the radar of the F-86K (NATO gun-armed version of the USAF’s rocket-armed F-86D), and with the 9,500 lb.s.t. Avon RA.14 (200 series) instead of the 7,500 lb.s.t. Avon 20 (Aussie version of the 100 series RA.7) of the other CA-27 Sabres.

Extending the fuselage 11 inches rearward to accommodate the longer Avon 200 should neatly counter the added weight of the all-weather radar installed in the nose.

Sounds like its down to the Australian, Canadian, and Naval FJ-4. Now that would be a fight!:diablo: :diablo: :diablo:

R. J. Childerhose’s book on the Sabre is enjoyable reading on this subject. According to him and other RCAF Sabre drivers, the Canadair Sabre 6 had a distinct edge over any of the US Sabres in the many dogfight exercises that were conducted in Europe in the 50s.

I have, however, heard that the CACs were even better, especially considering the upgraded armament. The NATO boys wouldn’t know about these of course.

I have heard the F-86H called the best of the US Sabres but I’m not sure it was as good a dogfighter as the F.

August