What would YOU ask Tony Benn?

Sorry to hear that it didn’t go very well, hopefully your email approach may come up with something useful.

Well I went – the fact I could go in on the concessionary rate was the decider 😉

Thanks for all the suggestions but, to sum up in one word, it was disappointing.

Here’s my question (I had written down in advance)
“Mr. Benn, As a government Minister you were often credited with being an advocate of the Anglo-French Concorde – playing a part in seeing the project through to fruition.
However some years earlier – in 1965 – you were a member of Harold Wilson’s Government that many believe delivered a mortal blow to Britain’s aircraft industry with the cancellation of the TSR.2, the P.1154 and AW.681.
The latter is very relevant to Coventry as many local people lost their jobs in the resulting closures of Hawker Siddeley’s Baginton and Whitley factories.
My question is – what part did you play in that decision, did you agree with it and, if not, how hard did you fight against it?”

The sound system at the venue was awful – I, and I’m sure other people, had difficulty hearing him and he couldn’t hear the questions put to him 😡

A woman went and sat next to him on stage to tell him what the questions were (or her interpretation of them) and, even though I took my written question to her, it still didn’t work and I didn’t get an answer to what I had asked!

It wasn’t AWB being evasive just an unfortunate/regrettable combination of poor hearing and poor sound.

I might look for an e-mail address for him and send my question – if I do and get an answer I’ll post it.

Roger Smith.

Well Roger, it looks as if you’ve got plenty of questions to put to Tony Benn this Friday. In fact if you ask questions based on all the aviation oriented issues raised in this post, the poor man won’t have time to get an answer in – although with Tony Benn I don’t view this as a realistic risk! Let us know what questions you manage to ask and, more interestingly, the answers that those questions receive!

When I was a kid/teen-ager all I thought about Tony Benn was of a left-wing union loving trouble-maker.

But over recent years, after listening to what he actually SAYS (seeing him on Question Time is a joy), I think he’s one of very few politicians who has the guts to stand up for what he believes in. He still travels the country talking to people and although I don’t agree with some of his views, I do admire the man greatly for his principled stand on issues which don’t go down well with New Labour.

I recommend readers to go and hear him talk and make up their own mind.

Ask him does he still get his monthly cheque from the politburo like the rest
of his scumbag party from that era

There used to be loads of uncompleted Pup fuselages outside the SAL hangars at Prestwick in the early 70s.

Oz: Benn denying £ for Pup get-well: Mintech 1968-70 met £6Mn. operating deficit during Beagle’s nationalisation interlude, before despairing. He declined a further £6Mn. for Pup “productionising” and for twin developments. He liquidated Beagle and sold Pup/Bulldog to SAL, not for local votes, but because owner Cammell Laird, alone in UK, stepped forward in July,1970. It was upto Cammell to spend wherever they saw payoff: they chose Bulldog, consuming incomplete Pup parts ex-Shoreham. They stated they found Pup not a good production design, with too many parts: a Pup owner told me he would not be surprised to find more discrete parts in its door than in much of a Cherokee. At expiry 152 Pups had been built, deposits taken for 276: price, £5,200, cost: “more”: boss Sir P.Masefield,Flight Path,Airlife,2002,P281 (published guess cost >£25K).

I had overlooked that Launch Aid, of £600K, was given for B.206 ontop of the Basset order. Benn tried to persuade Dowty Group (owners of BPA, wing fabricator) to take over B.206, to no avail. Constructor numbers 080-085 moved incomplete from Rearsby to C.Don early 1969; no takers, scrapped, plus 3 more at Shoreham.

ELDO: Yes.

Was it not A.W.B. as Minister for Technology who ultimately cancelled the Blue Streak / ELDO project?

Perhaps it’s funny, but I can recollect two politicians whose idiological positions were diametrically opposed – Tony Benn was one, the other was Enoch Powell – with whose views I did not agree, but for whom I had immense respect. That was because they were not shallow men, were committed to their positions and could argue those in a convincing manner. It’s sad that as time has passed, such men (and women) have become fewer in number – on your side of the Channel as well as mine – to the extent that, these days, there are few, if any, politicians of whom I can say that I have respect!

I think I read somewhere that Harold Wilson regarded Benn as his natural successor and that the leadership would have been his if only he became a little more moderate. Love him or loathe him, at least he stuck to his guns and as AA suggests that’s exceptionally rare in politics. Didn’t he also give up a seat in the lords (as Viscount Stansgate) because he didn’t/doesn’t believe in the hereditary peerage system. (‘Scuse me while I pop over to Wiki…)

Perhaps it’s funny, but I can recollect two politicians whose ideological positions were diametrically opposed – Tony Benn was one, the other was Enoch Powell – with whose views generally I did not agree, but for whom I had immense respect. That was because they were not shallow men, were committed to their positions and could argue those in a convincing manner. It’s sad that as time has passed, such men (and women) have become fewer in number – on your side of the Channel as well as mine – to the extent that, these days, there are few, if any, politicians of whom I can say that I have respect!

I thought Beagle went cap in hand to the Govt for some capital to expand their production facilities and to re-engineer the faults discovered on the Pups that were in service. They had back orders for several hundred Pups so the “too-pricy” tag wasn’t the whole answer. So the question for Wedgie is why did you deny Beagle a few million and give it to a Scottish shipyard which subsequently failed (Now there’s a surprise)?. I bet he doesn’t say “it was for the votes we needed in Scotland”. At least he was a sort of Socialist unlike the present loonies, sorry incumbents.

All this detailed aviation dates/times/decisions is irrelevant.
What is relevant is the question why this ancient, and not very successful, politician needs to take his circus on the road at all.
The answer lies, I think, in a serious character flaw which requires that he still thinks he is important and needs media exposure, and waving at cameras whilst getting out of Ministerial cars.
The question that should really be asked is by Benn himself – “Why has nobody come to my meeting?” If the citizens of Coventry have any sense they will make sure that he asks it. He’s past his Sell-By date. You know it. I know it. He needs to know it!
HT doesn’t H
Resmoroh

dl1: dates: Tory Govt., 1960. Pressed Steel pressed by Sir P.Masefield to set up Beagle, spring him plus T.220 from Bristol; Auster and Miles absorbed within 10/60-2/61. Launch Aid in the form of an order for 20 ex-T.220 as B.206 Basset for that odd notion of carting relief V-crews to dispersals. Woe descends due to design complexity, production-unfriendly. Bleats for Aid. How can any Govt. spend taxpayers’ money on taxis and funcraft? Bankruptcy 7/68. Benn sustains them, trying to prolong Pup sales; imposes Bulldog on RAF; Sweden interested, but wary of Beagle’s dodgy state. Benn transfers RAF Bulldog to SAL and exports follow; Beagle closes 1/70.
Which part of that is Benn’s fault?

On Benn’s watch HP expired 8/69 and Jetstream moved to its wing fabricator, SAL. Complex issue,military-driven, Benn not as lead decision-maker.

(I don’t relish defending this loon, but his aviation-period was not loony). I would try to call him on CND fellow-travelling. Reagan and Maggie‘s Memoirs have the fall of Soviet Marxism as caused by trying to match the West in guns+butter. Putin’s May,06 State of the Nation Address agreed. Does he regret his time as a Unilateralist? Does he accept that his success in keeping Denis Healey out of his Party’s leadership let Maggie take root in No.10?

I think we need to see the business model of Beagle to accurately judge their downfall.
They built some beautiful aircraft, but a series of expensive prototypes, over enginered GA types, and high prices (purchase and maintainance) over competitors (Americans mainly) wouldn’t have helped their cause.
As for the Jetstream, surely Handley Page got them selves into problems there.
Both may have looked poor investments at the time.

BTW I’m not saying Tony Benn hasn’t made bad descissions, or been on the wrong side of what we ‘enthusiasts’ prefer to see. But he is honest and open, even if we don’t want to hear about his actions or opinions.
As for job cuts, that is a very emotive subject on any level, the 1960s aircraft industry, 1970s Car industry, 1980s mass shrinking of MoD and mineing have all been fatalities.

Having denied Beagle of capital loans to finance production and development of the 206 did he not have any sense of deja-vue when transferring production of the Bulldog to Scottish Aviation, and making several hundred staff redundant on the South Coast despite efforts to purchase the remnants of Beagle from the receiver by respected light aviation entrepreneurs.

He did the same thing with Handley-Page transferring the Jetstream production North of the border

Did he get the alleged desired electoral response at the decimation of the British aircraft manufacturing industry

My sole connection wirth Beagle was being made redundant in October 1962

.
…Mr. Wedgie Benn has interesting stories to tell of his WW2 RAF Pilot Training in Canada or Rhodesia ???, but after that he appeared to be a Chameleon in a Wolf’s/sheeps Coat for the rest of his political career.

…I don’t think you will get a straight answer to anything you put to him about our Aircraft Industry demise. He won’t wish to drag skeletons out of the closet. But ask him anyway and post the results back here would you, at least the older members here will be interested, as I’m sure me and you aren’t the only ones still narked about what happened in 1960’s.

( Oh yes !!, for the younger folk reading this, It’s called Grumpy old men time—;):D ).

You could ask Tony Benn:-

” Why do we still, have to make war with countries when we now do not have the industrial resources available to us, we had back in 1950’s and would he agree that the government is in total, Titanic proportions denial about our Armed Forces Lack of Equipment and logistical Support.” :diablo:

Tony Benn is one of the straightest people (let alone politician) you can ever meet, and certainly dosen’t hide any facts about descissions that he has been involved with, the wolf in sheep clothes thing dosen’t fit.

As for TSR-2 (remember we don’t know if was going to be any good or not), and other projects, there probably were good economic and business reasons for their demise, even if unpopular. The Tory Duncan Sandys previously cleared the way for the demise of our military aviation industry. I think the biggest error from that period was the cancellation of the big carriers, but I think that was more Healeys bag.
As for Beagles demise, surely that was due to lack of competitiveness against Cessna, Beech etc

As for the last point, well I’m sure his answer would be that we wouldn’t support the war at all. This is a position he is well known for taking, and would clearly seperate himself from the awful two faced government, both on that point, and the current mess of our armed forces.

Met the Chap once and was amazing being in his company – really strikes me as someone you could easily approach and natter to (or organise interview) about his aviation history and decissions.

You have little cause to moan, some to commend Benn’s involvement with aviation. He was MP for one of the Bristol seats and was thus a supporter of Concorde, but had no responsibility until his Mintech absorbed the Ministry of Aviation, 16/2/67. He was thus in the Cabinet which chopped East of Suez, so F-111K, initiated (to be) Tornado, gave Launch Aid to BN-2 Islander, and took over bankrupt BEAGLE at our expense. No point shouting “What about TSR.2” as a) not me guv., b) a necessary cull.

In April,1977, as SecState for Trade he became the “owner” of nationalised BAe. This man spent, not scrapped. His barmy Left lurch into Unilateralism, and worse, was in Opposition, facing Maggie, which would turn many barmy.

Anthony Wedgewood Benn Esq.

.

Hi RP.
A good post. Aaaagghhh!!!!, for all the same reasons as you, my Political leanings are Slanted too. Mr. Wedgie Benn has interesting stories to tell of his WW2 RAF Pilot Training in Canada or Rhodesia ???, but after that he appeared to be a Chameleon in a Wolf’s/sheeps Coat for the rest of his political career.

I don’t think you will get a straight answer to anything you put to him about our Aircraft Industry demise. He won’t wish to drag skeletons out of the closet. But ask him anyway and post the results back here would you, at least the older members here will be interested, as I’m sure me and you aren’t the only ones still narked about what happened in 1960’s.

( Oh yes !!, for the younger folk reading this, It’s called Grumpy old men time—;):D ).

You could ask Tony Benn:-

” Why do we still, have to make war with countries when we now do not have the industrial resources available to us, we had back in 1950’s and would he agree that the government is in total, Titanic proportions denial about our Armed Forces Lack of Equipment and logistical Support.” :diablo:

It’s difficult to ask a question purely on Aviation, but you can see that is in there RP. Hope this fits your ( Aviation ) theme. I’m sure we all will still be –:confused: by his answer, but interested.——LOL.

Thanks RP, best of luck.

Bill T

ER yes- I THINK HIS MEMORY HAS FAILED HIM………
perhaps he means he was a Beagle supporter- oh no sorry he closed them down too