What would you do?

Hi All,
CD,
You beat me to the draw calling the police……:D

Geoff.

Buy a tank problem over! :eagerness:

In America? Shoot them! 😉

Cycle

Moggy

Well – what a difference six months makes!!!

Far from wanting to stir up this subject again, I feel compelled to mention it having been pilloried as much as I was when I joined this forum.

I do feel that what is said above reflects EXACTLY the situation we (I!) had here with the 388th colour photos.

At the end of the day, I feel it is incumbent on the photographer to ensure all reasonable steps are taken to ensure ALL stakeholders are consulted and that the photographer’s intentions are explicitly and unambiguously stated.

An obvious exception to this rule will be where someone makes the subject available to the public for display purposes, e.g. an airshow or some museums, where it is expected that photographers will be doing taking photographs with the intention of publishing.

If in doubt – ask – and a LOT of hassle might just be avoided!

Skipper

Yes it sounds like a case of one person ruining it for the many,how often in life do we hear that.
Just be polite, friendly and ask the top man,but let them know it’s a hobby for you and not making money out of their hard work.:D

Well, I gathered from Ray he did’nt mind me shooting in his shop, but wanted me to have permission from the museum, which I got…and then before I shot I double checked with his workers, who all said it was OK….later Ray got mad that I had put them in a bind like this! I told him I thought he should establish a photo policy with his workers so they knew where he stood when it came to photographers and him not being around….
I guess part of the problem was that before I got there (about a year or two before), there had been a photographer shooting in Middleton’s AND Skurich’s shops and then selling poster sized prints of the restorations for $200 a piece…which got EVERYONE on edge, and made it harder for folks like us who TRY to respect the rules of the establishment to get access. Anyhow, i chalk it all up to learning, and I will not photograph any restoration until I have the Guaranteed permission of the President, Prime Minister, and on down the ladder from there…unfortunately, it may have cost me access to a VERY interesting shop!

Mark

Simply put I always ask permission to photograph first if it’s private property. Some museums are a bit touchy but if your open to the public and charge admission the aircraft are in the public domain they are fair game. I still ask in that situation!
Regards people who don’t like pictures being taken you often
find the is an ulterior motive for this – best just to respect their views and wonder why!
The best advice is like Mark says- establish a track record and
they will ask you to come and photograph the aircraft!

Corsair166b,

Well I have known Ray for over 30 years. Quite a guy, with a fantastic portfolio of rebuilds, but he can be cussed on occasions.

I suspect this is a territorial thing. You may have had LSFM permission to photograph their Hurricane but you needed his permission to photograph in his facility. Who knows what else might be in there, perhaps hanging from the roof etc, that other customers may not want publicised for their very own good reasons.

Mark

Mark 12-

Very perceptive, sir…how did you surmise that it was Uncle Ray (never heard him called that ) Middleton? The plane in question was the Lone Star Hurricane, which I now have pics of but can do nothing with until this thing is unveiled to the public…as for patching things up with Ray, that idea has occured to me, I just wonder how receptive he’d be to the whole thing. Funny thing is, just 3 or 4 hangars away is Darrell Skurich’s shop, where I’m welcomed with open arms and the article I wrote for Classic Wings Downunder on their Zero did some good, as folks came forward with some parts for the plane after the article appeared!
Two different philosophies, two different ends…and as someone once said, ya can’t win ’em all!

Mark

Corsair166b,

Warbird owners, operators and restorers come in all shapes and sizes. Some are laid back so far you wonder why they do not fall over and some are control freaks. It is also the same with aviation journalists, photographers and serious enthusiasts. There is a lot of ‘heavy ego’ walking around here on both sides – but both sides need each other.

No restorer or owner welcomes continuous ‘intrusion’ in the run up weeks and days before first flight but rushes out to buy 50 copies of ‘Flypaper’ to send to all his chums after the flight.

In the UK we have had a notorious owner who has smashed a photographer’s camera to the ground. In the US, to the dismay of some in UK, you have had one photographer/journalist who expects exclusive rights to all warbird photography or ‘your’ machine does not appear in his journal – dream on.

From your location I would guess that ‘Uncle Ray’ has been giving you a hard time. As in life you will not win them all but do your homework on an individual basis, try to be able to offer something in return, and parts location/rumour is always a sweetener, and you will keep the problems to a minimum.

Mark (owner/restorer/journalist/photographer)

Snapper I think your last line sums up the situation nicely, as long as you have permision to photgraph in the first place.

I could have taken some lovely shots this year of two very interesting things – but left my camera in the car as I didn’t want the temptation of sharing. And do you know what? It was great just looking and talking about what there was in front of me. A great privilege.

I have some other shots which I haven’t posted that many of you would be interested in i’m sure. But the friend who let me take them felt it was best to just keep them to myself. So I have.

If in any doubt, don’t post. If asked to remove, remove. Check first and it doesn’t cause bad feeling afterwards.

I don’t know if I understand things correctly, but if I do I think the problem might be that there is a difference between permission to take photos and permission to publish (even on the web). It may be that they were happy for you to take photos for your personal use, but what caused the problem was that you published them without seeking additional permission. That said, they should have told you when you approached them that any photos would be for personal use only and that further permission would be needed for publication.

So to answer your question, from what you say I do think you had enough permission to photograph the aircraft, but perhaps required further permission before making said photos publicly available.

Have to second Ant’s opinion on this one, like him I have never been in that sort of privileged position but everything Ant said about their responsibility and yours seems to make a lot of sense.

Personally I’d say you went about things pretty much the right way,the only thing I wonder about is whether the museum director realised that your photo’s might end up on the web when he gave you permission to take them.If that was a problem,he should’ve brought it up and I don’t think you did anything wrong,it’s his responsibility to ask things like that.I certainly think it’s odd that your photo should appear on their own website a little later!Once the cat was out of the bag I suppose they felt they didn’t have anything to lose.
I suppose it might be an idea in future to ask specifically about posting stuff on the net just to make sure,but really it’s thier own fault if they don’t tell you not to.I’ve not been in the priveleged postion of being allowed access to a ‘secret’ project,so I’ve never faced this dilemma myself,but I sympathise with you entirelly.

RE:

Just remembered Liv Tyler is also in Lord of the rings.

another favourite woman of mine is Lori Petty who is the surfer chick in Point Break.

Merlin

RE:

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 02-08-02 AT 11:35 PM (GMT)]as well as the “love my family, friends” ect
id make my boss eat the peanuts out of my $h1t

🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

Dezz

I hope he dont read this!!!!!!!!!

😮
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Hmm, yes… I think we’d probably see the same as now, the struggle betwwen slefish people and decent ones, only in a much more intense way.

RE:

All of this bring some thought in my mind.
If we were all about to die tomorrow , I’m afraid that we would have to face the worst of humanity : rapes , murders , robberies and all the rubbish part of the mankind