When is the PIC referred to as Captain

My ‘ead ‘urts! 😀

-Makes tachograph rules look seemples!

Having asked the question elsewhere I received this enlightening reply from an airline First Officer. I am sure he won’t mind me reposting it here:

Trundling back from Shanghai today, me in right seat as PF and initially logging P1/S so on departure Skipper in left seat is PNF but P1 and Commander. After a couple of hours relief FO comes in and sits in skippers seat, I am then P1, PF and other FO is logging P2 as copilot and PNF. Skipper is still logging P1 as well, whilst asleep in the bunk as he is the Commander. Skipper comes back three & half hours later and resumes his seat as sole P1. Other FO takes my seat still logging P2 as copilot. I return 3 & half hours later for the last couple of hours of the trip, back as P1/S and PF.

So then, overall on a 12 & half hour flight, skipper has logged 12 & half hours P1 as he has been commander. I have logged 3 & half hours P1 and 5 & half hours P1/S (no hours whilst I was in bunk). Other FO has logged 7 hours P2 whilst he was relief up front as co-pilot.

Only anomaly is that whilst skipper is in bunk, both he and me are claiming P1, which is one of the few cases where this can happen.

Hope this helps and if it doesn’t explain it all, at least it shows how fiddly it can get!

FO = First Officer
PF = Pilot flying
PNF = Pilot non-flying
P1/s = Pilot in command under supervision
P2 = Second pilot as a required member of the operating crew

Moggy

I’ve never heard of it spoken as ‘Pilot in Charge’ but then again the phrase isn’t used very often as it’s mostly abbreviated to PIC.

Certainly the completion instructions in the front of my logbook specify ‘Pilot-in-Command’

Moggy

Gooday All

Turning into a very interesting thread.

In Australia, PIC is “Pilot-In-Command” I notice that some contributors refer to it as “Pilot-In-Charge” – obviously another one of those quirks that seem to abound in this area.

cheers

Now here’s a twist. On the RAF kipper fleet, the Nimrod nav TACCO could be captain, and the guy on the flightdeck in the left seat was PIC.

I was about to use the Nimrod myself, in military aviation the captain isn’t necessarily a pilot, but is the designated/most senior person on the flight/sortie.

I am sure this some historical connection. When in the Pilot-In-Command (PIC) referred to as Captain.

The titles PIC and Captain are interchangeable and mean the same thing.

Where the RH-seater is flying the aircraft he may be the handling pilot, but the Captain / PIC is ultimately responsible for it.

Moggy

[QUOTE=Batman;1547847]Nimrod nav TACCO could be captain, and the guy on the flightdeck in the left seat was PIC.

See the book “Man is not lost” by Gp Capt “Dickie” Richardson, who pioneered proper navigation in the RAF. He introduced this when flying very long sorties with Coastal Command. They carried two pilots and one nav, but he realised that the nav was responsible for conducting the mission.

To be facetious, pilots were generally public school “orifices” and had servants from the lower orders to perform the menial tasks.

Notably in Great War German aviation, the observer would be in charge of the flight, the pilot being ‘just’ the chauffeur (hence from the maritime ‘pilot’). Seems to have gone wrong somewhere after that.

Now here’s a twist. On the RAF kipper fleet, the Nimrod nav TACCO could be captain, and the guy on the flightdeck in the left seat was PIC.

In fast jets however, even though the nav might be authoriser and instructor, the guy in front was the captain.

Pilot in charge is a (postwar?) modern term, while captain is the preceding term. Not exclusively British, or anything to do with the ‘class thing’ as ‘Flugkapitän‘ was (is?) a civil professional title in Germany. The formal term was captain for civil and military use, ‘skipper’, an informal variant from ‘captain’ coming in widely in W.W.II military aviation. As has been pointed out, a derivation from international maritime practice. (As is ‘pilot’ a word that has shifted from its original maritime meaning in early aviation to the modern understanding of the term, which causes a reverse confusion for the role of a maritime pilot today.)

Notably in Great War German aviation, the observer would be in charge of the flight, the pilot being ‘just’ the chauffeur (hence from the maritime ‘pilot’). Seems to have gone wrong somewhere after that.

If you look at any old footage from the 1900s in which airships were involved you will see a large wooden ships wheel and the “Captain” looks very nautical in his uniform.

It was worse than that on Airships…..they actually had a Helmsman! 😀

PIC i always thought when there was two or more crew flying.

A co-pilot can be PIC, a qualified pilot with and instructor/ check pilot next to him during a test is PIC.

A Captain is the most senior person on the flightdeck/ cockpit.
Then again you can have 2 Captains on the flight deck and only ONE PIC.

Remember that nearly all aviation terms were lifted from maritime terms.

Knots…
The colour and placement of navigation lights..
and the term “Captain”

If you look at any old footage from the 1900s in which airships were involved you will see a large wooden ships wheel and the “Captain” looks very nautical in his uniform.

Certainly in old books it would appear that in the early 1930’s the PIC seems to be referred to as Captain!

Was it a leftover from the class thing of England?

Here in the States, if you’re anything other than the PIC of an airliner…or perhaps a large corporate jet….and call yourself a captian, they’ll think you’re a poncy twit.