When Scotland splits……..

jbritchford

It’s an awkward question for those Scots wishing to have a double standard 😀

As to the Isle of Wight, I think that would be quite an interesting independent country! Perhaps they could organise free trade agreements with Southampton, Bournemouth, Poole and Portsmouth? Ahh yes, I can see it now, a duty free at Brockenhurst 😀

Scotland isn’t just a northern county of England you know, but a nation in its own right, whereas the Orkney and Shetland islands have never been countries, so have no internationally recognised territorial waters of their own.
Orkney has been Scottish since the 1400s, and Shetland since the 1600s.

Does that matter?

If you think that people who want to have their own independence should be able to have it, shouldn’t the orkneys, or shetlands, isle of wight or wherever, be allowed it if that’s what they ask for? Why should they have to justify it historically?

Another thing that seems to be a ridiculous argument is the view of Scotland being ‘ruled by London’. If the UK parliament decided to change venue and meet in Edinburgh does that suddenly mean that England is ‘ruled by Edinburgh’? Scots MP have just as much say in Parliament (in fact more so given the westlothian question) as MPs from anywhere else.

Yes, many of the matters addressed there might be more relevant to England, but that’s where most people in the UK live. Most people in Scotland live in the South of the country, so I imagine the Scottish Parliament is mostly concerned with these areas, does this mean the highlands should go independent from the rest of Scotland?

Yet most of us can decipher and even have an educated guess at geographically locating every US accent on TV or the movies from Alabama to Wyoming…

I’ll politely point out that the UK population pays much more attention to accents than the average American…in the UK it seems to be used as a shorthand for class, education, etc.

The relative few American accents seem to confuse even well meaning and educated people from your country. Aviation engineer/writer Bill Gunston once wrote that he met a guy and based soley on his accent figured him to be a Kentucky backwoodsman…turned out he was a NASA engineer with a PhD from MIT.

I’ve never heard of a Wyoming accent….and I used to live a few miles from the state.
Tell me just how does it differ from Eastern Idaho or Southern Montana? 🙂

My point at mentioning this was simply that some people already believe the Scottish have their own language.
It was very thick in trhe film…no offense meant, but obviously taken. 🙂

The Basque country is not related to Scotland in any way so your parallel lacks any sense.

Believing that one party in the dissolution of a union should have no say in it is the equivalent of suggesting that only one party in a divorce should have any say

I can’t recall which religion it was where a husband could divorce his wife merely by repeating three time “I divorce you”. Not many people see that as acceptable.

I realise passions run high, but in discussing this it is probably better if we are grounded in reality. You tell me why the English should have no say in the future of the union between our two countries, because I don’t understand it, any more than I understand why the poor old Orkneys have no right to be independent because you have been dominating them since the 1400s. Is there some form of time cut-off at 1500?

Moggy

The problem with this is.. what would be the Independent Scottish view if the Orkneys decided they wanted independence?
Reminds me of ‘Passport to Pimlico’. Scotland isn’t just a northern county of England you know, but a nation in its own right, whereas the Orkney and Shetland islands have never been countries, so have no internationally recognised territorial waters of their own.
Orkney has been Scottish since the 1400s, and Shetland since the 1600s.

But then I am disenfranchised and don’t actually get to vote in Salmond’s Folly.
I presume you are English, so why should you have a say in Scottish independence? It’s like me saying I am disenfranchised at not being able to vote on Basque separation…

Moggy

Does it matter? 🙂
A few years ago one of the film networks played a Scottish film here in North America.
The accents were so thick they added subtitles.
Really, no joke.

Yet most of us can decipher and even have an educated guess at geographically locating every US accent on TV or the movies from Alabama to Wyoming…

Touche – My earlier post #64 begs the same question

There would be a good few oilfields in their waters, I would imagine splitting the revenue between the inhabitants would make them as rich as a Gulf oil state.

You see once you set this ball rolling, you can’t call it to a halt at a point where it suits you.

Touche – My earlier post http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1846055&postcount=64

“There is a humorous but realistic way to make this Independence sound even more silly.

Is Mr Alex Salmond going to accept that since he is fighting (oratorically) to divide an Island, how would he like each island off the shores of mainland Scotland to make a parallel claim for Independence from Scotland?

Yes it’s unlikely to ever happen but do you think the islanders get a fair deal from the mainland Scots – no is their answer in the main.

Would the islands be better off governing themselves ? No it would be hopeless projects.”

Someone needs to remind Mr Alex Salmond that Britain may be on the verge of entering ‘Double Dip’ recession soon, the worst since the 1970s. I was only a schoolboy but I remember it well, 3 -day working week in most companies.

As many others have said on this thread it is time Mr Salmond and the SNP stop the ego trip and instead to spend Westminster parliament’s time to find ways for the Scots, Welsh, Northern Irish and English to harness their brains to get Britain moving again.

what will be the main language of this new country?

Does it matter? 🙂
A few years ago one of the film networks played a Scottish film here in North America.
The accents were so thick they added subtitles.

Really, no joke.

Among the nations on this planet, can anyone think of another country and people which are ruled by bigger (i.e. more population/votes) nation?

The problem with this is.. what would be the Independent Scottish view if the Orkneys decided they wanted independence?

There would be a good few oilfields in their waters, I would imagine splitting the revenue between the inhabitants would make them as rich as a Gulf oil state.

You see once you set this ball rolling, you can’t call it to a halt at a point where it suits you.

I see lots wrong with the Scots and Scotland. I see lots right too.

In my view the Scots and the English are better, stronger, richer together, in the company of the Welsh and the six Counties.

But then I am disenfranchised and don’t actually get to vote in Salmond’s Folly.

Moggy

Its not us you have to convince…….its your fellow scots……

The amount of anti-Scotland biggotry in this thread beggars belief.
A lot of people here showing their true colours.

As Moggie says, a seperation and divorce always brings out the worst in people, but hopefully once all the name-calling is over and everything is done and dusted, the two ex-partners will still have a unique, dependable friendship.
I believe Scotland should no longer hold its hand out to Westminster, but stand on our own two feet, which we are more than capable of doing.
What the people of Scotland must ask themselves, after over 300 years of London-based rule, is this economy and standard of living really as good as it gets?
Couldn’t an independent Scottish government make better decisions and policies for Scotland than one based in a different country?
Among the nations on this planet, can anyone think of another country and people which are ruled by bigger (i.e. more population/votes) nation?

If Scotland do become independant I do hope they will pay for all expenses either side of the border involved in the transition.

Along with of course their share of the national debt etc…….

Oh and one other thought. What price could you get on President salmond, having carved his name in the history books, walks away from power after the event so when it all goes pear shaped……he can say “not my fault”.

Personally I’m a big believer in the Federal Republic of Great Britain. Run I suppose in a similar way to the USA. With two elected houses and an elected President……but you all know my views on that one!

And another thing….that oil and gas belongs in the main to Shetland I think and not Scotland.

All that said I worked in Edinburgh for a while and loved the city and the people. We also holiday frequently in the highlands and there are few places better on the planet for me than the Scottish Highlands.

I hope the majority of people get what they wish. Goodness knows the next few years (if not next few months) look very daunting for us all………….

I hope you are right and I hope the Scottish people vote with their heads and not their hearts. What’s the betting that “Braveheart” will be on the night before the referendum?

And will happen to the SNP if the independence vote is lost?

I think there are many many things that need to be carefully thought through if it isn’t going to cost Scotland a fortune. DVLA, DSS, Inland Revenue, defence forces, NHS all of these things and many many more will need to be split from their UK counterparts and set up as independent organizations. It will take years to sort out and at huge cost I suspect. When Scotland votes I hope these things are considered and debated beforehand and don’t come as surprises afterwards.

I suspect many of these will be kept national services but would be based on a buy in basis. ie Scotland would buy into these services.

in saying that I have heard all of this before and being Scottish I have no intrerest in the whole thing I would rather let other people take the decision and just deal with what will happen.

remember we all voted before and we didnt split then. It might be tight but I dont think we will split the uk.

As in any relationship there are good and bad points to both parties.

When it’s all bobbing along happily each puts the bad points to the back of their mind and concentrates on the good.

But as soon as one party starts talking divorce and complaining about their ‘share’ of the joint assets (whatever that is) don’t act surprised if the bad points suddenly come to the front of the mind.

Moggy

From my standpoint I have no problem with Scotland or the Scottish, infact I wish them the best of luck if they choose to leave the UK it just has to be done fairly. I also just struggle to see the point. The United Kingdom is just that, Scotland has always kept it’s name and it’s culture and with the devolved powers the Scottish parliament have they get a pretty good deal. Still it’s their choice and I support their right to make it as long as it’s fair so the rest of the union is not left with an unfair financial burden and the Scottish people are given honest accurate information as to the implications (positive and negative) of independence.

The amount of anti-Scotland biggotry in this thread beggars belief.
A lot of people here showing their true colours.

Seems simple. Give them their territorial waters and anything DIRECTLY beneath. As has been stated most of the money would still go to England as the majority of the tax revenue is generated at point of sale. Someone mentioned vast coal reserves. Are you really going to go down that route with current environmental issues.

Give them their rightful percentage of the military along with their equally rightful percentage of uk national debt. They can have the bank of scotland back complete with its debt. Let’s see how well they get on funding their free prescriptions and university places off their own back. Let’s see how well they absorb the costs of the ever increasing instances of damaging extreme weather. Oh and no more £ for you guys. I guess it’s the € or a new Scottish pound (good luck with that).

I wish you well if you choose to go your own way but just remember once your out that’s it. You can’t compare Ireland as the situation was very different and much more violent.

Adlertag said….
I really think the carrot of independance is being dangled in front of patriotic Scots without anyone having any firm idea about where following the carrot at all costs might lead. I see the SNP as a pied-piper leading the people toward a goal it doesn’t fully understand, and inviting trouble where there was none before.

I agree…. and the trouble has already started due to misleading teaching of historical fact in schools at primary level. For example the Culloden Battle, is sadly taught as a Scots V English fight when this is far from the truth.This resulted in playground fighting between local kids and those they knew were from England. Braveheart the film twisted many facts to allow a simplistic screenplay.

Without the removal of emotive propaganda I suspect the vote will not be based on practical plans.

Nobody asked the Scottish people for their views when the atomic installations were built, so why should we pay to have the filthy contamination taken away?

Because “the Scottish people” have benefited from the output of the nuclear power stations just as everybody else in the UK has.

It’s your ‘dog’ as much as it is England’s or Wales’s

Gordon Brown has said the UK needs to increase its nuclear power capacity – raising the prospect of plants being built in new locations.

The prime minister said that with oil prices soaring, it was time to be “more ambitious” for nuclear plans.

[SIZE=”2″]28 May 2008

[/SIZE]
Remind me what nationality Brown is, I seem to have forgotten?

Moggy

The governments that served the Scottish people, and that were voted into office by Scottish people, did decide on a nuclear deterrent though, and Scotland has enjoyed its protection as much as any other part of the UK.

In any case, I’m sure there are a variety of views about the nuclear deterrent within Scotland itself and the UK as a wider entity, it isn’t a case of pro-nuclear England forcing its ways on anti-nuclear Scotland.

Imagine if Scottish taxpayers had to pay 90% of the costs for an Oil terminal in northern England, then when independence happening the English deciding they never wanted it anyway and demanded Scotland pay to clean up all the pollution and decommissioning costs.