New thread, as we need to get the attention of the ‘told you they’d give up’ brigade.
Behind the scenes the Whirlwind team have been very busy, and have made a major breakthrough. Following on from the successful reverse-engineering work done to re-create the propeller blade profiles, Stu and the two Matts turned their attention to the fuselage profile.
The scarcity of surviving engineering drawings directly relating to this somewhat fundamental aspect of the project led us to re-assess what we did have to go on, and to see what we could glean from ‘alternative’ sources and a little applied ingenuity. In our possession was a set of original Westland plans for the 1/24 scale model Whirlwind used for wind tunnel testing of the aircraft’s aerodynamic properties. Pic 1
This set of plans included profile and contour data in tabular form, but this was difficult to read and interpretation proved a challenge as there are no real references to the conventions used in the late 1930’s in the Westland drawing office. For example, on first inspection columns marked ‘top radius’ and ‘bottom radius’ meant little in relation to essentially ovoid cross sections.. Pic 2
On the positive side this data was in inches to 2 decimal places, which still guarantees us accuracy within 3 mm when scaled up to full size (in fact the accuracy will be greater once the results are ‘smoothed’).
Having delved into the complexities of advanced lofting theory in attempting to decode the data we then realised that the practical chaps at Westland had actually used circular-section tops and bottoms (hence the radius figures) and splined sides, with curve break-points defined by structural features (essentially where the fuselage skin ‘planks’ joined).
The vital element in all this was that we were able to compare a sample of the Westland model data with the few remaining elements of original equivalent full-size data. Pic 3 An exact match was obtained, validating the results. To be precise, everything matches except for one solitary ‘kink’ in the model’s rear fuselage lower profile which clearly shows up an 84-year-old drawing office ‘oops’ in the conversion of one point between full size and 1/24.
Matt Painter has once again taken on the 3D modelling work. Pic 4 One odd effect of applying Matt’s expertise has been that the digitally generated spline curves on the fuselage sides will be more ‘accurate’ – smoother along the length of the airframe – than the close approximations to mathematical curves drawn manually with wooden splines in the Westland ‘loft’! As well as inputs into interpretation and research by Stuart Hawkins and Matt Bearman, the team are also indebted to Colin Smithson for his contribution of a wealth of knowledge to this phase of the project.
This breakthrough is a key moment for the project, and the achievement of a good, usable and reliable 3D model from a few initially unpromising scraps of evidence not only demonstrates what can be done with the kind of determination that this team have, but is also one example of the value of apparently random pieces of information.
In the style of Crimewatch – ‘Anything you have, no matter how small or apparently insignificant, might be the clue that we need to crack this’ (apologies if you don’t watch UK TV) – if there are any yellowing Whirlwind photos in Grandad’s attic, any documents, paperwork, anything kicking around that’s Whirly-related, anything at all, it is exactly the kind of thing that we are after.
Also, if anyone wants to dive into archives for us – here or in the USA, then let us know. This is an ongoing research project, with many opportunities for the glory – or just the satisfaction – of finding that random production drawing, that missing spec or detail photograph, buried deep in a vaguely-titled file.
As an example, the National Archives and Records Administration in the USA might not have been too promising a place to look at first glance. However, the most detailed original engineering drawings we have – a set of Westland factory drawings of the tail ‘acorn’ Pic 5 – were included in a file of correspondence around the application of Whirly design knowledge to the Lockheed P-38..
We have a member in the US who is going back to NARA to look for more nuggets like this, and we’ll have his info soon. But anyone out there who has access to any possible archive that might hold anything – local or national – please have a look for us!
The reason this hasn’t been done before is because it IS difficult. There are not the engineering drawings anymore to do this the easy way. It is because it is difficult that we are doing it! If we have to be non-traditional in our approach to get as accurate as possible a Whirly actually made then we will do it – and the more help we have, the better the result will be!
By: Supermarine305 - 10th July 2012 at 16:19
Beermat, Mike, Firebex, el al.
This is my last post on this subject. I think I might come across as rude if I didn’t reply in some way to the replies of the projects members and the points they raised. They are much appreciated.
Thank you all for explaining the situation in regards to the website more fully. I hadn’t actually considered using AW’s actual archived works or even those of other companies (to my shame I had overlooked words to that effect on Matty’s post #32).
Nevertheless I am pleased that some of the criticisms are being taken on board in making the website a more welcoming and informative place and I wish the project every success in its aims.
By: CeBro - 9th July 2012 at 18:41
Beermat, Mike and others of the Whirlwind Project group,
Thanks for your forthright input. It is very much appreciated. It takes a lot of time and effort to just start somewhere with a project let alone a project as complex such as this.
Thas Augusta-Westland is cooperating as well as several private collections is a good indicator regarding the trust these organisations have in you. Of course you want to spend more time researching rather that keeping the website updated.
Keep it up:)
Cees
By: TonyT - 9th July 2012 at 18:39
I was not saying open up that which was deemed by AW to be sensitive, simply improve access to the site, hence allowing people to view what was happening, how far along it was progressing etc, without the need to register to generate interest, some folks seem to have misread what I said…
By: Beermat - 9th July 2012 at 18:23
I am going to be a little more forthright than usual in defence of the people who have given up their free time for our project. No-one on this project is a professional web designer or editor – if you are we’d be delighted to hear from you if you are prepared to work for free..
They are, however, all people with jobs, lives and families. Any free time they have is normally taken up with getting the real work in hand – building a Whirlwind, not a website – as right as possible. Basically this means doing the unglamorous and thankless stuff Matt was talking about. Anyone who wants to help with that is very, very welcome to do so. In fact, moves are afoot to itemise the outstanding avenues that anyone is welcome to pursue, whether they are registered on the site or not. This is not a clique of those in the know – there really is nothing to know.
There are some very good reasons why part of the site was fenced off – as has been explained several times already, chief among these was the fact that AgustaWestland asked us to. This was when all parties assumed we would be needing to discuss the reams and reams of detailed production drawings we would find!
In those early stages we weren’t too clear on what info should go where, none of us as far as I know having done a website like this before. In the light of AW’s concerns we erred on the side of caution. We are taking on board the criticism and are addressing this right now (chaps, if you are reading this, I can’t get to my Hotmail – but I am in full support of Matt’s proposals in this direction). As for making the forum read-only to the unregistered – I don’t know that any of us even knows HOW to do this (see my first point)!
When there are some nice pics of assemblies to show, we will show them. Until then, apart from Matt’s CAD work (which he is now publishing to the site) progress could only be illustrated by dusty boxes full of largely irrelevant paper, and the very occasional ‘find’ which we are then probably obliged not to publish! Please don’t get the idea that there’s loads of stuff no-one is allowed to see – there really isn’t. Of course, if you are prepared to put in the legwork and find a new document or drawing in an archive, you can look at it all you want! This is the basis on which we have proceeded so far, and all are welcome to join in.
To correct one suggestion made earlier before it becomes ‘fact’ and self-fulfilling, support isn’t waning at all. Those who know about these things – and Steve, thanks for acknowleging that as someone who does know their stuff – know that progress is slow and painful, especially in the early stages, and therefore do not get downhearted or feel that things are being kept from them if they don’t see exciting bits of aeroplane in the first months or even years.
However, positive criticism around the website and registration from all those with the best interests of the project at heart has been gratefully received. Thanks to all who contributed.
By: Matty - 9th July 2012 at 00:42
Seem to spend most of my life squinting and guessing.
Send me a subject.
I’ve sent you a private message. Thanks for the offer of help.
By: Stan Smith - 9th July 2012 at 00:29
Come on Guys! Read Mike’s post #34.
Copyright, non disclosure and confidentiality !!!!!
By: TonyT - 9th July 2012 at 00:01
Sorry if my original thoughts created a flurry of comments, but I stick to them and considering it evoked quite a few responses as to why people have not bothered or been back from people on this site, where people here are normally 100% for such projects, it must me taken as a pretty concise opinion as to what other folks may think of the site, not to learn from that and address it in my opinion is foolhardy, but there you go.
I was frustrated when attempting to originally view stuff, when I did register I found the site fragmented and awkward to navigate round for a new viewer, that soon made my interest waiver, I made a donation and simply never bothered to go back as the site was so awkward to access and view what is happening, so much so the email updates these days go straight to my junk folder, as to see anything they are telling you about you have to go through the ball ache of registering onto the site to see it…
From MrBlueskies comments this has been brought up before but ignored.. Perchance are you now realising from the comments on this thread why your support is wavering?
By: boguing - 8th July 2012 at 23:09
Seem to spend most of my life squinting and guessing.
Send me a subject.
By: Matty - 8th July 2012 at 21:00
I have CAD skills – send me something to draw.
I’m also quite likely to be buying a 3d cutter in some form or other in the next 12 months.
Rather be doing a Hornet, so happy to treat this as practise!
If only it were that simple. Right now there’s no straightforward drawing, most of the time is spent researching. The trick is finding something to draw…
If you’re any good at squinting and best guessing numbers then you could help us make sense of the wind tunnel plans? They need to be redrawn…
Contact me on PM if interested.
By: boguing - 8th July 2012 at 19:59
I have CAD skills – send me something to draw.
I’m also quite likely to be buying a 3d cutter in some form or other in the next 12 months.
Rather be doing a Hornet, so happy to treat this as practise!
By: Firebex - 8th July 2012 at 19:46
Hi Guys
If I may put my input in as the project leader and also the person behind the web site.
Some of the points raised so far have some merit and will be considered but there has also been some comments about not being able to access stuff and people being dissapointed that we are not sharing material.
Can I just clarify a major point please.
We have built up over time a good working relationship with Augusta Westland and this involves a certain amount of trust on their part.Not many companies will give you unlimited access to their archives we have earned this trust and on certain proviso’s.
1) What ever we build does not fly.
2) we do not share,publish or distribute for gain or otherwise material obtained from AW for the project without their express permission.
The latter is the main one the jargon basically means that they do not want us putting stuff on the web site tomorrow and the next day its on a dvd and for sale on ebay from some one only interested in making a fast buck and not interested in the least in the project.
Thanks guys for your continued interest when a project such as this gets started their is an awful lot of information to be collected,collated and researched before it makes startling progress.Members of the site get access to special offers and discounts on whirlwind related items and also where possible we direct serious researchers to material we can share and to AW for their permission for material we do not have permission to share.Also to point out nearly 50% of the material we have so far has not come from AW but from other national collections and archives again with copyright and none disclosure agreements.
There are a number of excellent detailed books on the Whirlwind for modellers and very shortly a new release book will be hitting the market based on 10 years of research on the type.
Mike E
By: Supermarine305 - 8th July 2012 at 17:55
I feel this is getting put of hand and becoming a diversion to the original intention of the thread. What I offer here is is my opinion and critique of the website of the Whirlwind Fighter Project. I wish the project and all involved every success and if anyone disagrees with what I say now I’d like to point out criticism is not attack.
Matty and Robert, the points I raised are aimed directly and soley at the accessibility of the Whirlwind website. I can’t speak for anyone else here, but I do not have an issue about how the project is run. In fact I know little about how it is run which is why I won’t comment on that.
What I am worried about is that the closed nature of the website as it currently stands is a turn-off for prospective supporters and interested individuals. Most vistors aren’t going to be ‘hardcore’ aviation enthusiasts with the kind of interest in that particular type of aircraft to register without more information on the project. They might come to the page, see the paucity of info and assume the project is static (and I am aware the news page is open to all). Most people visiting that site will have a general interest in aviation and I suspect that most of those people wouldn’t bother to register in any case and just opt to check in for updates now and again. And that doesn’t really matter.
How many people who donated to keep XH558 in the air can name both the other V bombers? Or tell the difference between a Vulcan B.1 and B.2? It doesn’t matter, its their support that does. In fact if you go to Vulcantothesky.org an unregistered visitor has pretty much inhindered access to nearly every page on the website. Its this ready access I would like to see with The Whitewind Fighter Project.
As I said before I would never have registered with Keys if I couldn’t read the forums beforehand (in fact it was a picture of a BMW 801TJ power egg in Cranwell in the late 60’s that piqued my interet enough to want to ask what had happened to it). And that is the same with every other website I am registered with.
I do not understand why the gallery, videos, contact info (I presume that this isn’t personal phone/email) and library are all closed off to non-members. Nor why they cannot view the forums to read (but not comment on as that should be members only to prevent spam) the various threads. These are the things that will arouse more interest in the project.
I must add again that I have no issues with the layout of the website itself. In fact I feel bad about typing this because I am aware that there is a huge amount of time and effort all freely given to the aim of rebuilding a Whirlwind and I feel like I am pissing on peoples’ shoes. I just wish, for the project’s sake, that the website wasn’t such a wall.
By: Matty - 8th July 2012 at 16:24
I decided to “join” to read what is happening and to provide some support. I quite understand peoples concerns but I presume this is to attempt to reduce spam and the infiltration of the site by all the people who wish to use web sites for their own purposes. I don’t see anyone trying to be exclusive or keeping secrets from the general viewer. The running of a website can at times be quite onerous and distract from the actual work people are carrying out. Not every group has a person that is able to spend time on a web page. One Aviation Society I am in stiil had last years christmas dinner as News until May but I knew that the work was still ongoing on their current project. Onother web site I follow also has no recent updates but I have seen in an online newspaper an update which is not reflected on their web page.
If anyone knows of a better way to present the information and can offer to keep updating why not offer to help. I dont have the skills.All the best to the Whirlwind Project, the proof that progress is being made will be when all the background research and planning produces some bits of metal. If I see this first in the news of an aviation publication rather that the Whirlwind web page so what. “Members” can hopefully provide support, reasoned discussion and work for the group.
Robert, you pretty much hit it on the head I think. I ‘m not really comfortable speaking for the group. I got involved because I thought my CGI/CAD skills might be useful but I’m now more involved than I imagined I would be.
There’s only a few active guys on the research side of things and what little time there is for the project is spent on the tasks at hand. Which at the moment involves a lot of dead ends, phoning up individuals and organisations and often getting nowhere. It’s not very glamourous or exciting or newsworthy and it seems only a few have the patience and time for it… more volunteers are welcome!
I believe hands are tied with regard to anything found at Westlands, not due to official secrets or anything, but simply at the request of Westland not to disseminate the material.
At the moment the same is true for access to what is on the website and the reason why membership is required, it is a direct request from AgustaWestland, like it or not.
If anyone has any complaints about how things are being run and thinks they can do better then more people on the team would be great!
From my point of view a lot more knocking on doors and phone calls need to be made before anyone will see progress – there’s a good chance a nice set of dusty manufacturers drawings are sitting in some cabinet somewhere. Even if it’s just the drawings for the undercarriage or radiators…. The question is, who will find them?
Lastly, the project has only been going since Feb/March 2011 from my understanding.
By: knifeedgeturn - 8th July 2012 at 12:44
I thought that it starting off at about the time that shed man (builder of the Whirlwind cockpit) died; I recall some mention of measuring what he had built.
I definately don’t underestimate the enormity of the task, I have done some of this reverse engineering from photographs, scant drawings, and anecdotes, and you do get stuff wrong.
By: bradleygolding - 8th July 2012 at 11:41
About a year and a half I think, Stu or Matt will correct me if I am wrong, and very much still in the research and drawing phase. I don’t think anyone should underestimate the complexity and difficulty of the task ahead.
Steve
By: knifeedgeturn - 8th July 2012 at 10:41
Can I ask how long has the project been ongoing? I seem to remember something like 3 years; I would have thought by now fabrication would be under way. (at least some items that could adorn the project display stall)
It’s perhaps unfortunate that several failed attempts have gone before, inevitably tarnishing any further projects, but possibly serves to illustrate the enormity of the undertaking; like others I wish the project well, but I’m not holding my breath.
By: Robert Whitton - 8th July 2012 at 09:42
Westland Whirlwind Website.
I decided to “join” to read what is happening and to provide some support. I quite understand peoples concerns but I presume this is to attempt to reduce spam and the infiltration of the site by all the people who wish to use web sites for their own purposes. I don’t see anyone trying to be exclusive or keeping secrets from the general viewer. The running of a website can at times be quite onerous and distract from the actual work people are carrying out. Not every group has a person that is able to spend time on a web page. One Aviation Society I am in stiil had last years christmas dinner as News until May but I knew that the work was still ongoing on their current project. Onother web site I follow also has no recent updates but I have seen in an online newspaper an update which is not reflected on their web page.
If anyone knows of a better way to present the information and can offer to keep updating why not offer to help. I dont have the skills.
All the best to the Whirlwind Project, the proof that progress is being made will be when all the background research and planning produces some bits of metal. If I see this first in the news of an aviation publication rather that the Whirlwind web page so what. “Members” can hopefully provide support, reasoned discussion and work for the group.
By: AlanR - 8th July 2012 at 07:19
……Now the project itself. I feel that the project is becoming a rather exclusive affair with an inner circle who know everything and the rest of us left waiting for any snippet of information that leaks out.
Steve.
Doesn’t this so often seem to be the case with aircraft restoration projects ?
Secrecy for the sake of it. Perhaps it makes people feel more important ? 🙂
By: bradleygolding - 8th July 2012 at 04:05
More than my 2 cents worth.
Good morning from a wintery but warmish South Australia,
Nothing happens on this thread for days and then the whole can of worms opens up again. Now Matt, I was expecting Stu to call me since I sent him my phone number but maybe the time difference is causing problems so I will detail my concerns here.
Firstly the website. All of the above comments in this thread contain issues but I think that there are more.
The use of the term membership is misleading in this case because it implies something in return and frankly there is nothing offered here. Supporters might be a more accurate term to use. I conducted a report on the website for my Masters Degree detailing what was wrong (in my view) and how it could be changed. I even produced a redesigned dummy site to show how some of these changes might work, and no I don’t want the job, but I can send you the files if you like.
Now the project itself. I feel that the project is becoming a rather exclusive affair with an inner circle who know everything and the rest of us left waiting for any snippet of information that leaks out. Take news for example, one tiny post at the start of the year and then nothing for months until this thread, and notice that this thread is on a public forum not the project’s website. If this thread had started with a link to the news on the website that would have been fine. Six months with no news posted is a rather poor show though.
Last October? Some members of the inner circle were allowed into the Holy Grail of Whirlwind lore, the AgustaWestland archives. They apparently retrieved a significant amount of new information about the aircraft. I use the term apparently because in the following nine months none of that information has been made available to anyone in any form as far as I can tell and I wonder why? Members of the inner circle allude to these findings in forum discussions amongst themselves but that is the only public admission. The Whirlwind ceased to be on the classified list in 1943 so what is so secret about it now. There could be reasons and l think they need to be stated quite clearly.
Projects like this rely on the goodwill of members to raise funds and support the project if and when they can. Goodwill is very easy to lose and almost impossible to get back, and I think that this is showing already on the website. When the news on this thread was eventually posted on the site only one member commented.
I could go on, but frankly it’s a Sunday and I have better things to do.
Steve.
By: Supermarine305 - 8th July 2012 at 00:57
Hi All,
It is well worth registering for the info ….photos, plans,etc.
…. no pain ….. no gain …..
I can see the need for registering due to the type of documents available.I have received no spam from the site and as I recall I only used my e mail and a password to register.
There are many sites I have registered with on the net and the return I get for registering far exceeds that actual process.
http://www.whirlwindfighterproject.org/
Maybe the only hope we have of ever getting a 1:1 scale whirlwind
good luck to the team
cheers
Jerry
The point is we are not doubting that the Whirlwind Fighter project site isn’t a good site. It is well laid out and looks professional. There is nothing about the website I want changed look-wise, I just wish more of it was accessible for casual perusal. Currently the website fails in its main job: To inform and inspire the widest possible audience.
The issue is that it actually leaves you with very little indication of what is going on about the project within unless you sign up. Now this will put off a lot of casual visitors, because: A; signing up is hassle and involves another password that needs to be remebered. B; It is easy to get the impression, mistakenly I might add, that there is nothing on the site at all worth signing up if most links you click on lead to a log-on page.
(Or you can just look at the comments about the accessibilty from aviation enthusiasts interested enough to have sighed up to a aviation forum.)
I want the Whirlwind project to be successful. I’ll even push the boat out not very far by claiming everyone here does. But its success depends on public support and that website is a big, big part of gaining it. However as it currently stands it isn’t very welcoming or informative about what is going on with the project and people who might have been tempted in joining in -giving support or donations- are turned away. Website owners have to work on the assumption that most people visiting a website aren’t actually going to bother signing up for anything; lurkers far outnumber contributers. But that doesn’t mean lukers aren’t able to give their support.
And though your information on what does on in the website is most welcome, BrewerJerry, most people aren’t going to have access to that insider information.
tl;dr: Keep the look of the site the same. Just increase accessibity to the whole site to all visitors. Limit membership privilages to being able to comment (and post) onto the site.
The website is selling (not in a literal sense) its wares. And to do that the customers must be able to see what they are buying into. Currently they can barely do that.
Sign In
June 22, 2012 at 9:06 pm