whirlwinds for australia? (the fighter)

If the RAAF were to have used the Whirlwind it would have had to be re-engined as it wasn’t much chop above 15000 feet.

Additionally it would have needed cross feed between the tanks (apparently the RAF never asked for this originally!) as well as long range tanks and belt fed 20 mm cannon.

Voila – Whirlwind Mk II (Possibly with Allison engines)

Paul

i heard about it through a local guy that write alternative ww11 books
he is doing a bit of research for a possible alternative s/w pacific book and came across a few interesting aircraft that were offered to australia.
the whirlwind may have been offered before the pearlharbour attacks,when cac was looking for an aeroplane to license build when they built the wirraway,though i’m not sure about this(i know the hurricane and lysander were considered).
as for where he got this information i’m not sure,could have the uk offered ex raf stock? and reaquipped the whirlwind squadrons earlier than hey did?

Interesting!

Where did you hear about the RAAF being offered the Whirlwind?

This is the first I have heard of this – especially given that airframe production finished in ’41 and that there was a very limited supply of engines available for them.

Paul

Lord it was bad enough over here for the Spits!!!!!

the whirlwind mk11 would be the go,the cross tankage would help alot(qldspitty the whirlwind wouldnt be so bad as i already had more range iirc than the spit)i’m not to sure about the allison is it as compact as a peregrine?and according to this tread
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8000.0.html
petter him self wanted the merlin:eek:and claimed it fitted:confused:.
my other tought was what if a local engine company took over peregrine development? i’ve heard claims that rr already had a peregrine well on the way and running so would a developed peregrine with a 2 stage blower get it back over the 15,000 mark and competitive ?

thanks mark
i’m inclined to agree with you about local whirlwind production 🙁
a shame as i’m almost finished my darwin defender one:eek:(and i think it looks pretty nice in foliage green and dark earth) i think the only way we would have got them is if things wern’t going well in the uk and they were sent in place of spitfires from raf service stock(and replaced in raf service with hurricane mk iv’s.
as to australian production we probably have built (well cac would have forced the raaf’s hand:diablo:)us types au built a 20’s and a26’s maybe.
i’ll have to find out where the writer got his info from about whirlwinds

Paul,

The only two references I have, “Aircraft Pioneer” (Wacketts autobiography) and “Wirraway to Hornet” (The CAC official history), make no mention of the Westland Whirlwind being offered or considered for production in Australia.

The 3 man team lead by Wackett left Australia in 1936 to investigate a type suitable for production in Australia by CAC, a country which at that time had still not achieved mass production of its own car, the design therefore had to be sufficiently advanced to launch Australia into modern construction methods, but simple enough to be the first type built, allowing for more complexity later. It also had to be a type that had some useful purpose to the RAAF.

The UK Government, Air Ministry and Society of British Aircraft Manufacturers all opposed aircraft production in Australia as the colonies were seen as natural markets for UK production, indeed until the DH86 failed in service in Australia the import of US commercial aircraft was prohibited.

In “Aircraft Pioneer” Wackett explains that the Spitfire and Hurricane prototypes were both inspected by Wackett but considered too complex for the first production in Australia, the Spitfire was of particular interest but ruled out specifically due to the complexity of manufacturing the Merlin in Australia, he advises no other UK aircraft was found to be suitable.

In “Wirraway to Hornet” it is stated that the report from the 3 man mission considered the Fairey Battle to be the only UK aircraft capable of production in Australia, but was considered obsolete and its merlin engine again to complex. Apparantly the Westland Lysander was also considered but discounted as being of little value to production capabilities in Australia, no mention is made of the Whirlwind in either book, and any other source is probably mistaking references to Westland as being for the Whirlwind rather than the Lysander.

The Whirlwind was a response to a 1935 RAF Specification, the contract was not placed until 1937 and the prototype did not fly until 1938, I doubt it was ever considered for use or production in Australia, and certainly unlikely to be made available to the 3 man mission from Australia as it would have been a top secret design on the drawing board in 1936, especially given the attitudes in the UK to this mission and its intentions for Australian production.

CAC’s selection of the North American NA-16 as the first simple steel tube, stressed skin wing panel and radial engine design to wholly manufacture in Australia was a sound choice, simple but relatively modern construction, and provided the RAAF with a modern trainer and general purpose aircraft faster than its existing fighter aircraft.

However this choice of a US design hardened the attitudes in the Air Ministry, UKManufacturers and UK Government against CAC and Wackett, resulting in later UK designs considered for construction in Australia to be steered away from CAC, in 1938 Miles would not permit CAC to build the Magister as they would not permit it to be manufactured “where those American aircraft were being built”. Not surprisingly CAC was to never construct a UK design, but went on to built 3 designs from North American including the P-51 and F-86.

Later when the Australian and UK governments chose the Beaufort for production in Australia to provide Australia with a modern bomber, CAC was overlooked for involvement, despite having established a foundry, design, production and test flying capabilities including production of the Wasp engine. The Beaufort was chosen for production due to its sub-assembly contruction being suitable for production across multiple sites, and a DAP production capability was established on Railway workshops across NSW, Victoria and South Australia with senior Railway personnel in management positions, and its own engine factory built to make P&W twin row Wasp engines, it failed dismally, and BHP and GMH senior management had to be brought in (BHP and GMH were shareholders and founders of CAC!).

Clearly CAC with its existing factory and resources, particularly its construction of the single row P&W wasp for the Wirraway was the logical choice to base Beuafort production with, but the UK resistance to Wackett and CAC involvement wasted a lot of Australian efficiency, resources and time, by the time the Taurus engine was rejected for production in Australia and the P&W twin row Wasp 1830 chosen to power the DAP Beaufort the limitations of DAP were recgonised against the strengths of CAC and the new government engine factory built in Lidcombe to make the 1830 was handed over to CAC not DAP.

Its clear the railway based DAP resources could not have taken on the Whirlwind for production in Australia, and I suspect it equally wasnt considered in place of the Beaufort, as the project was specifically targetted at Bomber production for both the RAAF and RAF.

In simple terms in 1936 to 1940, Australia supposedly faced no known threat, it was protected by the might of the Royal Navy and the Singapore defence, and at most it needed operational maritime patrol aircraft such as the Anson, Hudson etc, the torpedo carrying Beaufort, or the Sunderlands that were ordered and delivered to 10 Squadron but left to fight in the European war, equally the locally built CAC Woomera was designed to carry two torpedos.

When Japan entered the war in late 1941, the UK had already declared no further wartime materials would be made available to Australia due to its own dire situation. As Japan quickly advanced south Australia had to turn to its own production and designs, and further designs and outright supply from the US.

Suddenly Australia itself was at risk of invasion and now urgently needed more modern fighters and bombers, leading to more Hudsons, Catalina’s and P-40’s being rushed to Australia, and the local production of the Boomerang.

In 1943 Wackett, DAP and the RAAF went on another mission overseas to select a more modern fighter and bomber for production in Australia, by this time the Whirlwind was long gone, and in this case the Mustang was selected over the Spitfire for production by CAC in Australia, a decision supported by Air Marshal Sir Ralph Sorley and Sir Roy Feddon of the Air Ministry, note that it wasnt until 1943 that Wackett considered Australian production of the V-12 Merlin, clearly making the 1941 Peregrine unthinkable at that earlier time.

By 1942 De Havilland in Australia commenced work towards Mosquito production in Australia with the first FB40 being delivered in July 1943, surely filling any role the Whirlwind mark I may have ever been considered for Australia?, and by 1942 the Whirlwind mark I was finished in its UK production and proposals to re-engine it with Hercules or Merlins as a mark II etc simply reproduced the Bristol Beaufighter already in service in the RAAF from UK stocks, and about to be constructed by DAP and by 1943 the Whirlwind mark I itself was being withdrawn from Operational service in the RAF.

I dont think the Whirlwind would have ever been seriously considered for Australian production, and definately not with Peregrines, the four cannons of the Beaufighter and Mosquito provided most of the benefits to Australia offered by the Whirlwind

Regards

Mark Pilkington

and this is how i’d imagine a darwin defender whirlwind would look