Who designed the Avro 504? and when?

SV Setty : Avro Student Pilot and Draughtsman

Avro Student Pilot and Draughtsman
SV Setty

Srirama Vekatasubba Setty, commonly referred to as SV Setty or Setti,was the son of Rama Thippaiah Setty and Savitri Sakamma. He was born in Mysore, in the Karnataka State, India, in 1879. After attending the Western Mission High School, he graduated with a degree from the Maharaja’s College, Mysore, in 1900. He then attended the Engineering College at Roorkie in Uttar Pradesh. Travelling to England to continue electrical and mechanical engineering studies, Setty went to work for Wilson and Robinson.

Setty joined AV Roe and Company at Brooklands, near Weybridge, Surrey, on 8 May 1911. The Avro Flying School charged £50 for tuition to Royal Aero Club certificate standard or accepted work on the developing and testing of aircraft instead of payment. AV Roe recalled (in 1939), “At Brooklands in 1911 an Indian student joined us. As he had some drawing-office experience at a technical college, he assisted me in getting out drawings of the ‘500’ and ‘501’ types, which were then sent to our Manchester works to be actually built.” Roe’s recollections are not always supported by contemporary documentation, and it may be that Setty worked on drawings for the original Type E. Roy Chadwick, working in Manchester, developed the first Avro 500 ordered by the War Office. However, Setty definitely worked on general arrangement drawings for the Avro Type F enclosed monoplane on 17 August 1911, and worked further drawings with fellow aspiring pilot Sydney Sippe between 24 and 31 August.

Sippe and Setty began learning to fly with Avro at about the same time, with the periodical Flight recording that they had both begun to attempt straight flights in mid June 1911. On Saturday 17 June Setty was called upon to guide a group of Indian visitors to Brooklands. Setty is next recorded as having been ‘rolling’ an Avro biplane, presumably the 35.p. Green Type D No. 3, on 25 September until he suffered a burst tyre. Rolling resumed soon afterwards but Setty was soon in trouble as “After two or three straight lines he turned off and ran in to the sewage farm. He is a vegetarian, and it is thought that he may possibly have some irresistible attraction for the cabbages which grow that way.” Rolling continued on 6 October, and Setty’s first straight flight was made on until 11 November.

Further straight flights were made on 29 November, 27 and 29 December. On Saturday, 30th December, two circuits were recorded, though Flight noted later that Setty’s first circuits were not until 16 February 1912. Setty flew the Viale-Avro D No 6, with an experimental propeller, on 1 January 1912. He was back flying circuits on Type D No 3 a week later, on 8 January. Setty was airborne on Friday 12 January, but did not fly again for another month, when he was back practising ‘straights’ on 12 February.

On 14 February John Duigan, an Australian, began erecting his Avro biplane at Brooklands. This had been built in Manchester in 1911 and taken to Huntingdon for flight trials. Fitted with an Alvaston engine, Duigan discovered that his biplane was significantly underpowered. He replaced the Alvaston with an ENV engine and moved to Brooklands for further trials. By tuning the engine and trying different propeller designs, Duigan managed to make a number of flights but his Avro was never practical as a passenger aeroplane.

Setty may have been involved in helping to erect Duigan’s Avro as part of his normal work at Brooklands. Setty had his photograph taken sitting in the Avro, but there is no evidence to suggest that he was ever allowed to attempt to fly it. The Calcutta Modern Review, published in July 1912, claimed that Setty designed one of the propellers for the Avro. No other modifications were made until after Duigan sold the aeroplane. The new owners enlarged the wings and fitted a 50 h.p. Gnome engine to give the aircraft an acceptable performance. Nevertheless, Duigan managed a number of flights in March and April, and passed his Royal Aero Club tests on 20 April, 1912.

Further flights in the Avro D were made by Setty on 21 February, though one ended up in the sewage farm. Fortunately Setty wasn’t hurt, and was back in the air on 13 February. 16 February, 1912, was the date of his last recorded flight. Setty did not attempt the tests which would have gained him a Royal Aero Club certificate.

It appears that Setty left Avro soon afterwards as, on 12 March 1912, HV Roe wrote a reference for him stating “He has had considerable experience in the Flying School and has become very efficient in the tuning up of aeroplanes and engines. He has the makings of a very good Pilot (although he failed to obtain his ‘Ticket’). He has also worked in the Drawing Office on some new types of machines, and we now consider him to have had sufficient experience to be left in entire charge of the erection of a machine of any type. If required, he could carry out any alterations, which may be required, including the designing and drawing of same.” Generally HV believed that Setty had “given every satisfaction, has been an excellent time-keeper, and in every way persevering and industrious, and is now very expert in all matters relating to aviation.”

This seems to be a general reference, though it does jar with AV Roe’s recollection, “I noticed whenever I had occasion to leave the aerodrome that on my return little had been done. I asked him the reason, and he always had some excuse that he wished to ask me about some detail or other.” This may be why Sippe was tasked to work on the Type F drawings with Setty though, by AV Roe’s own admission, his preferred design freehand sketch “method may have been primitive” and thus open to interpretation.

The first Type E made its first flight, at Brooklands, on 14 March, and Setty may have helped to assemble the aircraft. Flight recorded that a “Rama Smith” (who may have been Setty) was taken up the following day for load carrying tests to prove the suitability of the design as a two seater. The flight ended with a poor landing and the need to replace the undercarriage.

HV Roe recorded in his diary that Setty left Brooklands for India on 23 April 1912, but turned up at Brownsfield Mill at 9:20 pm on 21 May for an unknown reason.

AV Roe recalled the last time he heard from Setty, “one day I received from him an Indian newspaper in which I read an account of a dinner that was given him to celebrate the fact that he had been responsible for designing an aeroplane which had been ordered by the British Government in large numbers !” Roe commented, “In writing of the past I do not like to say that I designed this or that aeroplane, for even if a machine is of one’s own conception, yet there must necessarily be others who played an important part in its final details and construction. Pioneers in any line are sure to have assistants who think they have done the deed themselves…”

It may well have been at this dinner that Setty was awarded the medallion still in the possession of his family. It is dated June 1912.

Back in India, Setty planned to build his own aeroplane but the difficulties of raising sufficient funds, and then the restrictions placed on private manufacture and flying by the war, prevented this. In 1913 he was appointed Superintendent of the Mysore school of mechanical engineering, and on 10 October 1918 he was appointed as a Professor of Mysore University. He died soon afterwards, a victim of the influenza pandemic.

well thats a conclusive and authoritive statement on the involvement of said gentleman, and straight from the horses mouth so to speak!

thanks BC

regards

Mark Pilkington

SV Setty

“At this time we had a flying school, at which some of the pupils paid for their tuition, whilst others used to work for a certain time in return for an hour’s flying instruction. Or perhaps it would be more correct to say some worked, whilst others amused themselves in other ways…..

In writing of the past I do not like to say that I designed this or that aeroplane, for even if a machine is of one’s own conception, yet there must necessarily be others who played an important part in its final details and construction. Pioneers in any line are sure to have assistants who think they have done the deed themselves, and perhaps the following may indicate this trait.

At Brooklands in 1911 an Indian student joined us. As he had some drawing-office experience at a technical college, he assisted me in getting out drawings of the ‘500’ and ‘501’ types, which were then sent to our Manchester works to be actually built. I noticed whenever I had occasion to leave the aerodrome that on my return little had been done. I asked him the reason, and he always had some excuse that he wished to ask me about some detail or other. Later he returned to India, and one day I received from him an Indian newspaper in which I read an account of a dinner that was given him to celebrate the fact that he had been responsible for designing an aeroplane which had been ordered by the British Government in large numbers !

I had my own way of designing at that time. Take the wings for instance. My original schme was to work out the size that the machine was going to be according to the weight it would have to carry, and from that I would calulate the angle of the wing, the size of the spars and the distance apart that they would have to be. Then I would draw the spars in section in their relative positions and round them I would sketch freehand what looked like being the best wing-section which would enclose these spars. My method may have been primitive, but it was efefctive. Obviously as we made more progress so we adopted more accurate and scientific methods. We also now have a considerable amount of data to draw upon.”
Ref : The World of Wings and Things, Sir Alliott Verdon-Roe

Some interesting comments on S. V. Setty, I have no doubt that he was involved with the aircraft previously mentioned, being responsible for the design of and flying them is another matter! From the Avro experience certificate it seems that he worked in all parts of the company including the Avro Flying School.

The use of English in the certificate is very much of its time, however the two items of particular interest are:

1> The reference to his time with the flying school, it seems clear that as well as working on the aircraft, he at least had the opportunity to gain some flying experience. (Having had a look through Appendix E of “History of British Aviation 1908 – 1914” it does not appear that S.V. Setty gained an Aviators Certificate from the Royal Aero Club)

2> Again from the Certificate it seems clear that he had gained sufficient practical experience working on aircraft, for the company to be happy with his ability to erect (assemble) and rig an aircraft.

I have no doubt that S. V. Setty could have designed a successful aeroplane (i.e. one that would fly), others with a great deal less engineering experience did! However the question is did he do the things claimed for him while he was with Avro? I have seen no evidence to make me think that he did, so for the moment my answer has to be I doubt it!

Having said all this, I am glad that I now know of him and something of his role in aviation History.

E Gray

Well, well. Setty designed the Avro-Duigan/Seabird. That is very good to know.

BTW – the first article is by Nick Forder – he is the curator in charge of the aircraft collection at the Manchester Museum of Science and Industry (MoSI). Might be worth contacting him direct.

Allan

Here you can find articles about Setty and Avro
http://pease1.sr.unh.edu/pipermail/cci/2005-March/000981.html
http://www.earlyaviators.com/esetty1.htm
http://www.aviastar.org/comments/comments.php?order=0&aircraft=4819

Eric,

Thanks – I’ve just cross checked a number of trusted sources and that’s exactly the same story in them all.

Two points to add – the floats were all made at Windermere (by Borwicks) and the short (just over fours months) flying life might be why it is thought that Waterbird and Waterhen are the same aircraft. Waterbird never got a Flight write up but Waterhen was featured in Flight in Dec 1912

There is also a photo of the collapased hangar in Flight.

Mark, sorry I can’t find any specific references to the designers of the aircraft. Most of what I have seems to deal with correspondence between AV and HV Roe and Wakefield – but then Wakefield did sue them for supplying a faulty engine.

In the period you are looking at, AJ Jackson’s Putnam also mentions a Farman type aircraft built for Maurice Edwards in Bolton.

The Avro-Duigan was originally fitted with the Alvaston engine and later re-egined with a 35hp ENV.
After Duigan returned to Australia, the aircraft was sold for £180 to the Lakes Flying Company. The floats and modification to the fuselage for the Gnome engine were carried out locally by Borwicks. It then became Seabird. See Flight article on July 19 1913

There were other aircraft at Windermere: Gnosspelius’ two aircraft, the Lakes Monoplane and other from different sources such as the Deperdussin in my Avatar – none had a connection to Avro.

I’ll do some more gentle digging. A good friend is the acknowledged expert on this subject. I’ll ask if he has the info you need.

Allan

Evening All,

The “Avro Curtiss-type” as described in A J Jacksons book was built to the order of Capt E.W.Wakefield of Kendal in 1911. It was constructed at Manchester and delivered to Brooklands on May 25th 1911 the first flight being on the 19th June (It was not a floatplane at that time). It was operated by the Avro School for a short period before being dismantled on July 7th 1911 and moved to Lake Windermere.

At Windermere the wheels where replaced with a single float, plus cylindrical wing tip floats, in this form the aeroplane made its first flight on the 25th November 1911. The press where invited to an exhibition flight two days later, the favourable description’s in the press seem to lead to the name ‘lakes Water Bird’ being adopted.

The aircraft was in use right through the winter of 1911 / 1912 until March 29 – 30, 1912 when water bird was damaged beyond repair due to the collapse of its Hangar. The aircrafts successor known as ‘Water Hen’ was designed and constructed by Capt Wakefield’s Lakes Flying Company during the latter part of 1912.

As to Info regarding S V Setty’s involvement in the design of the aircraft previously identified, study of period aviation magazines and any surviving AVRO records may be of some use.Other than that, posting on forums such as this with the hope of coming upon someone with more personal knowledge may well be Mark’s best bet!

Regards

Eric Gray

Pondskater’s post seems to indicate that it was an Avro product but I may be drawing an erroneous conclusion from his silence on the point.

Silent ‘cos I’m still away from home and all my files/books on the subject. ;):)

One point – two Windermere aircraft were Waterbird, built by Avro, flew Nov 1911 and destroyed when a hangar collapsed on it and Waterhen, built by Lakes Flying Co, a slightly larger version of Waterbird to take passengers and still flying by 1916. Jane’s has merged the two into one aircraft. Oh the joys of early aircraft research.

More later this evening.

Allan

At the risk of muddying the waters, this afternoon I have been reading a facsimile of part of the 1917 edition of ‘Jane’s All The World’s Aircraft’ and it appears to offer some contradictory points of view.

The Waterhen is described as having been built not by A.V.Roe but by the Lakes Flying Co. at Bowness-on-Windermere. Pondskater’s post seems to indicate that it was an Avro product but I may be drawing an erroneous conclusion from his silence on the point. It is said to have been a pusher hydro-biplane and first flew on 25 November 1911, making it the first British aeroplane to fly off water and alight safely thereupon. Apparently it was still flying in 1916.

As Pondskater says was commonplace at that time, it is very unspecific in naming of types and models – usually only referring to an aeroplane as, for example, a 1911 Blériot. This is the case with its reference to Commander Schwann’s Avro seaplane. It is described as an Avro, with a 35 hp Green engine, which first flew in 1911, was the first aeroplane to get off British sea water “but was smashed”. Apparently it was rebuilt as it is described as later being flown by Mr Sippe at Barrow-in-Furness.

Under 1911 there is also a reference to the ‘Circuit of Britain’ Avro, with an E.N.V. engine, which was smashed on the day of the race. It is described as an early example of a fixed-engine tractor biplane. On the same page it details a “British-Portuguese” Avro monoplane which was constructed to the ideas of a Portuguese officer and had a fin on top (the photograph suggests the position of this as being between the cockpit and the engine cowling).

There are two references to the Avro Triplane, in its 9 hp engined form of 1907/8 and its 35 hp Green engined form of 1910. However the first Avro reference is to the 24 hp engined biplane of 1906, of which it says that it was “designed by A.V.Roe” and was “the first British machine to leave the ground”.

There are later Avro references from 1912 onward but these are getting into the territory already covered and probably more accurately recorded in A.J.Jackson’s book.

Hello Allan, I am sorry, your link does refer to Mr Wakefields aircraft which indeed does look inspired by a Curtis design (and has similarities to Duigan’s 1910 pusher as well).

I have never been made aware of this aircraft until now, and have never heard of the Avro-Curtiss type.

The seaplane I am thinking of is the Lakes Seabird, which was built from the Avro-Duigan.

My contact is with the grandson of S V Setty, India’s pioneer aviator who was an engineer trained in England and worked with A V Roe from 1911 to mid 1912, he was involved in the design of the Avro-Duigan as well as the Avro E/500, before returning to India. His grandson is trying to resolve what designs he did work on, and records are scarce, and over this same time Alliott Verdon Roe obviously continued to play a major role in the designs, and Roy Chadwick was also working at the site from 1911 as A.V.Roe’s personal assistant.

Regards
Mark Pilkington

The naming of early aircraft does vary considerably in different references and I’m away from my files at the moment, so reluctant to add confusion.

But the aircraft I’m referring to was commissioned from A V Roe by Edward Wakefield of Kendal. He wanted it to follow the basic layout of the USA’s Curtiss machine – hence sometimes known as Avro-Curtis. Once at Windermere it was known simply as Waterbird. It had a Gnome 50hp engine and flew (from the lake) in Nov 1911 piloted by H Stanley Adams.
It was later replaced by Waterhen which was very similar but slightly larger and more capable of carrying passengers.
To add confusion, some references claim Cdr Schwann’s Avro D floatplane was the first flight from water at Barrow (also Nov 1911), but it crashed after a lurch into the air – not a valid flight, but sometimes claimed as such, particularly since Waterbird’s flight is often overlooked.
I’m genuinely interested in whether your contact’s grandfather worked on the Waterbird design.

For Waterbird pics see page from Flight magazine 1912

I’ll look up more dcetail tonight.

Allan

There were other aircraft which came from A V Roe’s works at around the time. One was an “Avro-Curtis” which, after being test flown on land, was fitted with floats to become Britain’s first sucessful floatplane and named “Waterbird”.

As the name implies, the design was based on the sucessful Curtis floatplane. I’ll see if there is any info about who at Avros did the dsign work on it.

Allan

Waterbird was a rebuild of the Avro-Duigan, I am not aware of any such Avro-Curtiss, and yes John Duigan had previously built his 1910 pusher biplane as the first Australian designed and built aircraft to fly.

Regards

Mark Pilkington

The Duigan Biplane seems again to have been designed / developed by Roe, power was provided by a 40HP horizontally opposed Alvaston driving an Avro airscrew. First flight was made at Huntingdon Racecourse flying ground in early December 1911. The flight was no more than a hop! The aircraft was returned to Avro and re-engined with with a 35HP E.N.V and flew again in March 1912, the aircraft was however still underpowered. Working as his own mechanic Duigan designed, manufactured and fitted his own airscrew and tuned the E.N.V engine, both efforts improved the aircrafts proformance.

Is the Duigan referred to Mr J.R.Duigan, who built and flew a boxkite type biplane at Mia-Mia and which, in 1911, apparently became the first Australian built aeroplane to fly?

There were other aircraft which came from A V Roe’s works at around the time. One was an “Avro-Curtis” which, after being test flown on land, was fitted with floats to become Britain’s first sucessful floatplane and named “Waterbird”.

As the name implies, the design was based on the sucessful Curtis floatplane. I’ll see if there is any info about who at Avros did the dsign work on it.

Allan

There are two photos of the Avro 504 taken at Dunstable on the 29 september 1913. On the Dunstable history society photo gallery.
www.book-castle.co.uk/history/historysociety.htm

Dave

According to “Avro Aircraft since 1908” by AJ Jackson the information you require is as follows:-

The type ‘D’ was designed by A. V. Roe, the aircraft was erected at Brooklands in March of 1911, it appears to have been powered by a 35HP Green engine and first flown on April 1st by C. Howard Pixton.

The Duigan Biplane seems again to have been designed / developed by Roe, power was provided by a 40HP horizontally opposed Alvaston driving an Avro airscrew. First flight was made at Huntingdon Racecourse flying ground in early December 1911. The flight was no more than a hop! The aircraft was returned to Avro and re-engined with with a 35HP E.N.V and flew again in March 1912, the aircraft was however still underpowered. Working as his own mechanic Duigan designed, manufactured and fitted his own airscrew and tuned the E.N.V engine, both efforts improved the aircrafts proformance.

The ‘E’ and ‘500’ again seem to have been designed and developed by Roe.

The 504 fuselage and undercarriage was designed by “Messrs Chadwick and Taylor” wings where designed by H. E. Broadsmith.

If you can manage to get a copy of the book, it should answer many of your questions.

WF