Having a discussion on another thread (Airliner World) concerning what aircraft first utilized contra-rotating props, or what company invented them? He seems to think the Russians did on the TU-95 butI know that is completely wrong, any help?
By: Arthur - 17th May 2003 at 10:30
I’m not sure if the XB-35 indeed had contraprops, but it was one American design which was eventually planned to have contraprops. However, the US never managed to get a reliable enough gearbox for such an engine (for some reason the US more often had problems developing massive high-power gearboxes) so in the end they cancelled the whole idea of counter-rotating props. A few American aircraft did fly with them though – the Ryan XF2R-1, and the A2D Skyshark.
The Russians of course flew the Tu-95/114/116/142 series and An-22 with counter-rev props, but they also flew the Tu-91 Bychek (ASCC designation Boot) which was a prototype for a CAS/COIN aircraft which got cancelled under Khrushchev, appearantly for being absolutely hideous.
By: whirlwind - 17th May 2003 at 06:37
Not forgetting the venerable Fairey Gannet
By: CIRRUS - 16th May 2003 at 09:32
CONTRAPROPS
A designer in two minds invented the contraprop (pushing) for early aircraft and the contrascrew (pulling) for later ones!
But seriously several of the earlier ill fated helicopter concepts had contr-rotaing propellers (blades), arms, planks of wood, model aircraft wings attached to two different shafts.
Focke-Angelis Fa 223 with the vertical application of the original Wright Brothers concept (1936) and the same might be said of Fa61 an it s hovering in confined spaces much to the delight and abject horror of many people in German Sports stadiums. For the French there was the Bregeut-Dorand 314 (1935). Certainly the Macchi MC.72 which set a new World Air Speed record in 1934.
How about Badgleys 1879 Air ship design powered by a Steam Engine? How about Ferber in 1902 (OK so he is French! and I hear the retort how about Ferber, Who?) Did the XB-35 have contraprops? I believe it did. The Shackleton etc …
By: Arabella-Cox - 16th May 2003 at 03:21
“Some early (unsuccessful) helicopter prototypes featured co-axial rotors.”
Hehehehe… funny.
By: Kenneth - 15th May 2003 at 18:01
In general such a propellor arrangement is used when the engine power is so great that it’s torque is a major challenge to maintaining aircraft stability.
Not only that, a corresponding single prop would have a much too large diameter (loss of efficiency; u/c problems)
Some early (unsuccessful) helicopter prototypes featured co-axial rotors.
Not only those, Kamov in Russia seems to be quite succesful with them even today.
Didn’t the Westland Wyvern have counter-rotating props as well?
By: dhfan - 15th May 2003 at 17:59
True, but they were several feet out along the wings, not co-axial.
By: gbwez1 - 15th May 2003 at 17:41
The Wright Brothers had two props geared to the same drive shaft, roatating in opposite directions to produce a zero torque effect.
By: dhfan - 15th May 2003 at 09:56
True, that’s opposite rotating, like the Hornet, albeit with fewer engines.
Jap fighter was probably Kawanishi N1K Kyofu or Rex. I pictured it in my mind when I read the post so looked it up. Seems only the first prototype had had contra-props. Had trouble with the gearbox so all the rest had a single one.
By: saffire8291 - 15th May 2003 at 06:56
gbwez1,
By “contra-rotating props” one generally means “two propellers on the same shaft rotating in opposite directions”. The Wright Flyer had two props and one engine, but they were located on different shafts.
In general such a propellor arrangement is used when the engine power is so great that it’s torque is a major challenge to maintaining aircraft stability.
There were several pre-WW2 aircraft (particularly racing machines) that featured contra-rotating props. Companies with such aircraft are Supermarine, and Macchi.
Some early (unsuccessful) helicopter prototypes featured co-axial rotors.
Heinknel planned to build a bomber with contra-rotating props, but never got far. There was a Japanese amphibious fighter too, that had such a prop arrangement, but the name eludes me ( big, radial engine, single seat, single main float under the fuselage and twin outriggerfloats).
By: gbwez1 - 15th May 2003 at 04:29
Well my vote goes to the Wright Brothers, because their 1903 Flyer had contra-rotating props.
By: dhfan - 15th May 2003 at 01:00
Just dug this out from the bowels of the forum.
Nothing really to report but a couple of snippets here.
The Macchi was the MC72, intended for the 1931 race but not ready in time. 2 Fiat V12s on a common crankcase.
Couldn’t find anything in the Rotol book about who or when but,
I did find a pic of a MkIX Spit with contra-props!
That surprised me.
By: KabirT - 5th May 2003 at 05:27
TTP u misread me….i said Russians perfected the contra-rotating props with the TU 95.
By: dhfan - 5th May 2003 at 05:24
One of the Macchi (I think) Schneider Trophy entries had contra-props which must have been in the 20s. Got an idea it had 2 separate engines driving them.
Seafire 47 (Griffon) had ’em, several Spits for trials but as far as I know, no production ones.
Got a book about Rotol, I’ll see if there’s anything in there.
By: Arabella-Cox - 5th May 2003 at 04:38
Didn’t the Seafire (naval version of the spitfire with a huge engine) have counter rotating props.
Counterrotating props is a sign of a very powerful engine… I’d suggest looking at very powerful engines to find the earliest… about 2,000hp +.
Certainly the Contrarotating props on the Bear are the best implementation of props on an aircraft… it is still the fastest prop driven jet inthe world as far as I know… to do with the coarse pitch allowing low RPM which greatly reduces tip speed (and therefore delays sonic drag).
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May 5, 2003 at 1:00 am