Who owns a spitfire?

Am not sure either “side” would want this. Nobody is going to (willingly) take a case against the collective legal and financial might of the MOD – nothwithstanding the flakiness of their case. For their part, the MOD have seemed reluctant to press the matter.

As far as warbird owners/museums/collectors are concerned (and apart from the financial considerations already mentioned) why would they want to prod a hornets nest? Especially as outcomes of legal cases can never be predicted!

Although it is never openly discussed or spoken about, I do know that there are more than a few warbird owners/restorers etc who have niggling concerns about this matter. It is a can of worms. I think all probably hope that it stays closed.

Obviously needs a test case to set a precedent, anyone think of a suitable candidate anywhere?:)

There have been several cases brought, generally, under the Protection of Military Remains Act. In each case I believe that “theft of Crown property” has been an element of the prosecution. In each case the theft charge has always been dropped before going to court. The reasons are clear.

The MOD are unwilling to have the ownership question challenged in court. I am aware that the MOD’s own internal legal advice is that defending the ownership position may prove difficult. They would clearly prefer the satus quo to be maintained; ie they tell everyone it belongs to them, hope everyone goes along with that and that nobody ever challenges it or that they have to defend it.

One also has to consider that in 1974 the MOD wrote to say that they had abandoned all claim to crashed wartime aircraft “….which had been reduced into the possesion of the landowner”. I still have that letter. Framed! Since then they have reneged on that and reversed the situation. In the late 1980’s they also said they had no interest in or claim over crashed/lost RAF aircraft outside of the UK. Again, they have now gone back on that.

That is absolutely appalling.!!! Talk about double standards..

Probably a silly question but have you or do you know of any legal cases of questioned possession that have been challenged with your framed letter.?
I realise it probably all boils down to costs /legal fees but surely anyone such as yourself would have a very good case should there ownership / rights be challenged by the MoD… or am i just being naive.:confused:

Rob.

The Common Law of Abandonment comes into play, here. It is much your complex than your over-simplification here – believe me!!

One also has to consider that in 1974 the MOD wrote to say that they had abandoned all claim to crashed wartime aircraft “….which had been reduced into the possesion of the landowner”. I still have that letter. Framed! Since then they have reneged on that and reversed the situation. In the late 1980’s they also said they had no interest in or claim over crashed/lost RAF aircraft outside of the UK. Again, they have now gone back on that.

Andy,

Since when? Can we reclaim all costs recovering all “their” wrecks then?

Cees

Look at it another way. You’re flying a R/C aircraft when for some reason the transmitter falis and your plane comes down in someon elses garden. Do they now ‘own ‘ the aircraft?

A childs ball come over your fence into your garden, do you now own the ball?

A car, driving past your house, swerves to avoid an oncoming vehicle on the wrong side of the road, crashes through your front garden wall and comes to rest on your front lawn. Can you assume ownership of the vehicle?

I think not.

The Common Law of Abandonment comes into play, here. It is much your complex than your over-simplification here – believe me!!

One also has to consider that in 1974 the MOD wrote to say that they had abandoned all claim to crashed wartime aircraft “….which had been reduced into the possesion of the landowner”. I still have that letter. Framed! Since then they have reneged on that and reversed the situation. In the late 1980’s they also said they had no interest in or claim over crashed/lost RAF aircraft outside of the UK. Again, they have now gone back on that.

Look at it another way. You’re flying a R/C aircraft when for some reason the transmitter falis and your plane comes down in someon elses garden. Do they now ‘own ‘ the aircraft?

A childs ball come over your fence into your garden, do you now own the ball?

A car, driving past your house, swerves to avoid an oncoming vehicle on the wrong side of the road, crashes through your front garden wall and comes to rest on your front lawn. Can you assume ownership of the vehicle?

I think not.

I think the clue to the thread is in the first post.. “If you are DIGGING the large garden/land”.

Look at it another way. You’re flying a R/C aircraft when for some reason the transmitter falis and your plane comes down in someon elses garden. Do they now ‘own ‘ the aircraft?

A childs ball come over your fence into your garden, do you now own the ball?

A car, driving past your house, swerves to avoid an oncoming vehicle on the wrong side of the road, crashes through your front garden wall and comes to rest on your front lawn. Can you assume ownership of the vehicle?

I think not.

Hmmm.. like alot of things it sounds like honesty does’nt always pay. If i were to be lucky enough to make an ‘historic’ find in my back yard i think i would be very wary about who i told.. at least to start of with, especially as i rent.;)

But as i have already run a metal detector over the garden i’m pretty sure no hidden aircraft dumps are located there.. knowing my luck its in next doors garden.!:rolleyes:

Your problems start if the last owner is still in it. Or any ordnance or weapons…. They can be funny b*ggers over such stuff.

An interesting question would be, could they claim ownership to a aircraft that was not struck off charge however in ownership by another party? Maybe the raf own more than they think!

Ah….now that is getting to the interesting knub of the matter.

The MOD claim that “Struck off Charge” is just an accounting exercise. It does not mean they no longer own it!

At least…..that is what they claim.

The gentleman who lived in my bungalow prior to me found a live WWII Mills grenade in the garden, in a corroded condition, he then placed it in a cardboard box and took it to the local nick and placed it on the counter.

Strangely enough they didn’t want it, the school opposite was evacuated as was several houses nearby. EOD kindly pitched up and detonated it, in a local field as it was too dangerous to remove properly. It caused a right caffufle.

I think it depends on what you have buried in your garden to what degree of interest the MOD/Police will take in it and action (if any) they would take. If it still had a missing pilot on board I would presume they would come a knocking otherwise ?

If you own any land on which is buried an aircraft lost whilst on military service then, legally, it is necessary to obtain a licence under the PMR Act to recover it. The MOD “claim” that they own the wreckage, but that has never been legally tested and I doubt the MOD would get very far in a court of law, frankly. Equally, I doubt the MOD would seriously consider prosecuting a landowner who decided to dig a big hole on his own land and recover a wreck. Legally, they could. But I doubt they would. I think there was a case where they threatened – but then backed down. Their claim, also, to title is seriously flawed in many respects. It is something that I have spent many many hours studying. I have actually written an article/paper; “Who Owns Them Anyway?”. I rather suspect it would set the cat amongst the pigeons somewhat if ever published – both with the MOD, warbird owners/restorers, museums and collectors/dealers. An interesting minefield!

An interesting question would be, could they claim ownership to a aircraft that was not struck off charge however in ownership by another party? Maybe the raf own more than they think!

If you own any land on which is buried an aircraft lost whilst on military service then, legally, it is necessary to obtain a licence under the PMR Act to recover it. The MOD “claim” that they own the wreckage, but that has never been legally tested and I doubt the MOD would get very far in a court of law, frankly. Equally, I doubt the MOD would seriously consider prosecuting a landowner who decided to dig a big hole on his own land and recover a wreck. Legally, they could. But I doubt they would. I think there was a case where they threatened – but then backed down. Their claim, also, to title is seriously flawed in many respects. It is something that I have spent many many hours studying. I have actually written an article/paper; “Who Owns Them Anyway?”. I rather suspect it would set the cat amongst the pigeons somewhat if ever published – both with the MOD, warbird owners/restorers, museums and collectors/dealers. An interesting minefield!

I thought even if you owned a house and land, you didn’t own the mining rights ( check your deeds ). Whether that includes archaeological excavations too I don’t know. I’m guessing there’s some law somewhere that says it’s not yours!!

Steve

Surely if you own outright your house/associated land then anything found there is legally yours. But if rented in any way then that is a different story (landlord becomes owner).

Any legal eagles on here who can confirm or deny otherwise.?