Okay, maybe we shouldn’t scrap Sally B, but for the past few weeks now I’ve been reading messages posted on this forum. It would appear that we all have a healthy appreciation of all things aviation and in particular our own aeronautical heritage. The photography is also very much appreciated and no doubt the age of digital photography has improved many a photographer.
But with every message and with every photograph posted I fear that this forum confirms our failure in which the United Kingdom’s own precious heritage is being sacrificed through this obsession with America’s Flying Legends.
We live in a country with a rich and diverse aeronautical heritage. Yet, this obsession with brightly coloured foreign airframes has and is having a detrimental and damaging effect on our own heritage. Looking at any display line up at Duxford and it was appear that we are slow in either persuading the likes of the OFMC or TFC to swap their American charges with British designed and built airframes, or they are sacrificing our heritage so these few individuals can fly fast piston-engined Cadillacs.
Wednesday, 17th December 2003 marked the 100th anniversary of the Wright Brothers first powered flight – not that many in the UK paid much attention. The commemorative events in the USA were overshadowed by the conviction in the UK of Ian Huntley for murdering Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman. Perhaps we do take the magic of flight for granted. Or perhaps the media’s obsession with the evil of one man (that over a community’s wish to move on) pushed other stories or events down the running order. But I digress…
Why is our aviation heritage so important?
Today there are only a handful of surviving veterans of The Great War (1914-1918). In 25 years time there will be a similar number of elderly veterans of the Second World War (1939-1945). Those who remember or who bore witnessed are our greatest assets – those we look up to with pride or for an insight into what happened. Yet, when the last solder, sailor, airmen, or wartime evacuee has passed away what is left will become exponentially more valuable. The problem is that by then it maybe too late. If we are to consolidate our history beyond the grave then we need to increase our heritage portfolio and not cast away the physical attributes in the same manner we have done in the recent past.
Whose Heritage – Whose Priority!
Our aviation heritage – that we know and love – extends beyond the contours of the Spitfire and Hurricane. Yet, despite our rich and diverse heritage the biggest issue we face is the waste of valuable resources (funding) expended on the preservation of foreign aircraft. This has become a national scandal of epic proportions.
Question: why is it that we are spending what valuable resources (funds and manpower) that are available on preserving the aeronautical heritage of other nations, while our own heritage crumbles into obscurity? In writing this I highlight the ever-increasing perception that our aviation heritage (both physically and intellectually) is being sacrificed over that from other nations. this essay also highlights the dangerous practice of “Top Shelf Aeronautica” – what use to be called “Spitfire Snobbery”, which is being practiced by the very institutions that we ultimately rely on to protect our heritage (see also “Big is Beautiful” below).
Take for example Duxford – renowned as being the biggest and best aviation heritage site in Europe. Despite being a major Battle of Britain aerodrome, 50% of the aircraft of display (static or airworthy) are foreign. My first visit to Duxford was on November 6th 1995. At the time builders had just started on the construction of the American Air Museum. Despite this costly activity I was concerned by the condition of the Avro Shackleton and Handley Page Victor, both of which had been left exposed to the elements.
Eight years later and the same two British aircraft remain outside and in a deteriorating or worst condition. This while the IWM not only opened the American Air Museum, but also expanded this collection of America’s heritage. We know funds are limited, yet the Imperial War Museum saw, as a priority, the preservation or conservation of more popular foreign airframes over more vulnerable (and valuable) British aircraft, whose future survival is now jeopardised.
My concern is that we are not only sacrificing our own physical heritage, but we are also enforcing the perception that we either never had an aviation industry worthy of preservation or that the aeronautical exploits of other countries outclassed or surpassed our own.
At this point it must be noted that private individuals or organisations are not exempt from this criticism. If anything they are the real culprits – they more than most have the ability (funds) to preserve our heritage, yet choose to turn the aforementioned Flying Legends display into a celebration of American airpower. I must add at this point that my criticism is not anti-American in context or content. It is largely directed at those in authority (OFMC, TFC, IWM, RAF Museum and Heritage Lottery Fund management) who desire to preserve the heritage of other nations (using scarce resources and even scarcer funds) this while our own heritage is increasingly at risk.
This I guess is due in part to the misguided believe that sexy fighters and bombers sell, and that America produces the best porn (P51Ds and P47Ds).
AirSpace
As most of you will know the Imperial War Museum are going to create a new attraction at Duxford – based on Hangar One (the Super Hangar). What amazed me was a leaflet, which I guess most of you recently received through either Flypast or Aeroplane Monthly. The Imperial War Museum want your money so they can preserve “our” heritage. The leaflet reads: ‘What you do today could inspire generations to come’.
The leaflet continues: …it’s a sad fact that the future of this heritage is not yet secure. A number of the aircraft are housed out-of-doors (never knew you could house something outside?). Indeed without vital conservation work, they would be lost to the nation forever. The Premise behind AirSpace is that those airframes currently in danger of being lost will be saved. Yet, if you look at the same leaflet an accompanying floor plan excludes both the aforementioned Victor and Shackleton. The new AirSpace museum will also exclude the VC10, Trident, BAC111 and Bristol Britannia, which will remain outside – until they’re scrapped or until the IWM build another structure to pollute the Duxford skyline.
The Premise behind AirSpace is that construction work will result only in a 40% increase of floor space. It appears that ancillary displays and a conservation centre will take up precious space, which could be used to house additional airframes. So where does that leave the Shackleton and Victor? It is reported that the Shackleton will be sectioned, with both wings being removed and stored elsewhere on site. I’m also concerned about mixing airframe restoration and display facilities in the same building – all it takes is one small accident and we could loose an entire collection.
Now if I was a high-paid executive of the Imperial War Museum, I would have (a) considered constructing an identical Super Hanger (bolted onto the east side of the existing structure) or (b) extended the length of the said existing structure. I would have replaced the ends with large glass panels (just like the American Air Museum and what is proposed for the new AirSpace Museum). The premise behind these proposals is that there would be a 100% and not 40% increase of floor space. Perhaps as a result those large [and British designed and built] airframes currently “house out-of-doors” could be guaranteed a brighter future.
Big is Beautiful
Rumour has it that when HeavyLift went into receivership, the owners offered its last airworthy Short Belfast to the Imperial War Museum for a mere £4,000 (to cover the cost of fuel). This offer was polity refused on the grounds of cost (how much did the IWM spend on the American Air Museum?). What is worrying (****ing annoying) is that Duxford are in a better position than most to offer this airframe a ‘sheltered’ home. In recent years, a number of [British] large airframes have been scrapped, yet the Duxford Aviation Society has proved that large airframes can be preserved by bodies who are sometimes more ‘focused’ or ‘mission orientated’ than their national counterparts.
Thumbing through the pages of Flypast and Aeroplane Monthly it is easy to identify the problem areas. We know that large British designed and built aircraft are scrapped at an alarming rate. RAF transport aircraft are particularly at risk – why? Because we still suffer from Spitfire Snobbery. Museums need to attract visitors – both to secure funds and to impress funders.
A lumbering old transport, whose faded paintwork does little to detract from years of accumulated bird droppings, will always be less attractive than an easily identifiable Spitfire or Hurricane (even if they are fibreglass replicas).
The RAF Museum’s Blackburn Beverley was scrapped we are told because it was too costly to move to Cosford. We are also told that the airframe was unstable. In reality the RAF Museum’s Blackburn Beverley was scrapped because it wasn’t sexy enough for Hendon’s new image. Fact: a Spitfire will always outsell a lumbering old cargo plane. No matter, according to the RAF Museum this airframe was in fact owned by the MoD – so weren’t to blame.
Imagine if those with money and influence stopped and thought about their actions (or lack thereof). No matter how prestigious or charismatic, with every foreign airframe that pollutes the skies above Duxford the more likely our own heritage is consigned to the history books and cultural obscurity. I’m not in any way trying to diminish the contribution of our allies during World War Two, but to sacrifice our own heritage will only result in future generations questioning our own aeronautical and engineering exploits and abilities. And yes, it was the Royal Navy and not a US submarine that secured an enigma machine from a German U Boat during the war. And yes, the British did land on the beaches of Normandy on D-Day – Steve Spielberg and Hollywood take note.
Imagine if someone had the balls to create a replica DH Albatross or Airspeed Envoy or even a humble Vickers Virginia, nay a Fairey Long Range Monoplane. What if all that money and engineering talent was diverted from rebuilding yet another Spitfire and directed towards building a Wellington, Halifax or Mosquito. What if that instead of being excited by the visit of a Lockheed Constellation, we directed our efforts at putting back into the air an Vickers Viscount – after saying that, how many people know what one is? How many care? As long as your £2.50 Duxford burger doesn’t give you the ****s, who cares what flies above our heads?
Discuss…
Phillip Rhodes – http://www.driffieldaerodrome.co.uk
By: John C - 10th September 2004 at 09:30
Ok, as is my want I’ve sat back and watched from a safe distance.
My view? A “heritage” is only borne from a huge amount of external influence, so in order to appreciate a particular “heritage” surely one should acknowledge that which has driven it?
So in the case of the UK preservation scene there is plenty of room for foreign input – whether it be 8th Air Force, Luftwaffe, SAC or whatever the Soviet Air was known as.
Our home grown aircraft always formed part of a global picture – surely thier adversaries and allies deserve a place alongside them?
The same argument applies to the preservation scene in the US, Australia, Mainland Europe – wherever enthusiasts want to appreciate aviation.
There is never anything to be gained from tunnel vision – you will miss a lot of interesting scenery 🙂
What is being proposed (the focus on the home industry) runs the risk of people having only one view of histrory without being encouraged to seek alternative views.
JC
Come back CrazyMainer – I appreciated you!
By: JDK - 10th September 2004 at 09:03
*Sigh*
Mark – some people don’t want foreign a/c and want British a/c only. Not me, and it’s a tiny minority view.
Some others think that there should be more effort put into preserving British a/c rather than American. Not me, because it’s understandable, emotive, and doesn’t account the commercial realities of the case. Fair enough, it’d be nice but it ain’t going to happen.
Finally, CM ‘left’ (for the second time) because he chose to take his toys and sulk. No one was forced out. He made some wild accusations told people how they should do things, and got the response he asked for.
You know, when you imply or say that people are acting stupidly, whether British or American, it’s funny; you seem to get a rough response. Gee. I wonder why?
We all say silly things at times; but if you can’t accept other points of view, I guess you are going to go. Too bad.
there’s a debate to be had her, and I’d direct my American friends to the majority of the posts (supporting US Warbirds) and the tones of the rest (regret that there’s not more British) rather than feeling attacked (a minority view I, for one, don’t support.)
Cheers
By: Dog House Ldr. - 10th September 2004 at 03:52
I think the real deal for me is this: the people who lived in England during the war want american and british warbirds over the English skies. Many young British, Commonwealth, and American flight crews gave up there lives in order the world could live free. To say that a P-51 is polluting the skies is rubbish, What would you rather have, an American fighter or bomber, or none at all. I wish the American people in general had as much passion for their avaition history as you all do. We can’t even get a sizable donation for our own avaition museum here, becuase no one cares about Consolitdated plants contribution to the war. So in essence the more the better! 😡
By: Corsair166b - 10th September 2004 at 02:55
Hmmmm…
Got a post from CrazyMainer in my e-mail that he’s leaving this forum…looks like the boy is serious. Look, folks, I’m a huge fan of the British, have TONS of friends over there and am looking forward to possibly coming over there for Legends next year and looking forward to seeing a lot of friends and acquaintances….but, my god, come on…WHY the constant knocking of anything American? Do some of you seriously want an ‘all British’ collection of aircraft over there, nothing from the rest of the world? Isn’t this the VERY forum in which a bunch of folks accused the US movie industry of filming ‘Saving Private Ryan’ as an ALL US movie showing no one else as having fought the war? They kinda contradict each other, don’t they? “We want British planes in Britain, no others despite the fact LOTS of other countries used the UK as a base for striking at the Axis countries.” Does’nt quite fly, does it? Should each country operate only its indigenous aircraft on thier own native soil? We take back all Bearcats, Corsairs, Mustangs, B-17’s…you guys get all Spits, Hurricanes, Fireflies, Blenheims and such? KInd of a boring warbird scene then, isn’t it? You lot would have to travel to France to see theirs, Germany to see theirs, you would see NO Japanese aircraft unless you were rich, and would have to have a few pounds in your pocket to see any American planes, also…the whole thing seems kinda silly to me…but I guess a few folks just feel they gotta open a can of worms in here instead of trying to get along with others and LEARN from others even despite their
differences….
Just don’t make a whole lot of sense to me….but whatever…another forum member gone because of it.
Mark
By: Maple 01 - 10th September 2004 at 00:49
I’m more than happy to see US aircraft in UK museums but I would have liked Hendon’s examples painted in representative RAF colours – Coastal command or 90gp B-17, 19 Sqn P-51, for example. It’s not as if they are in their original schemes anyway (I stand to be corrected about this) Incidentally, while I’m on about Hendon – fix that B***** Halifax will you?
-Nick
By: JDK - 9th September 2004 at 23:20
Oh boo, CM! 😉
It’s not very impressive to take your toys away and sulk because you’ve been asked to tone it down.
I’d like to think better of you.
The operative word here is ‘think’. It’s easy to react and also to react to what you think has been said, rather than what has actually been said.
We’ve discussed this offline CM. Input is valued; particularly if it’s thought out first. Off the cuff remarks are often to be regretted.
The British and the US aviation heritage scenes have a rich background; you might like to reflect that there might be good reasons why things over here aren’t as you expect.
I don’t agree with the idea of attacking the US heritage, nor do I think attacks on the UK scene particularly funny. Discussion of merits, difference and looking at why is interesting. The header for this essay was deliberatly contriversial; but that’s for a good reason and he explained his thesis after getting our attention. I don’t agree with it all, but it is a great topic to discuss.
If you really don’t feel you can stay, fine, too bad.
Back to the topic folks?
By: crazymainer - 9th September 2004 at 22:51
Mark12 Nope
Mark12,
Sorry but not this time, I’ve already start to delete post that I’ve put up.
By
By: Mark12 - 9th September 2004 at 22:45
PS. Mark12 please disable all of my personal codes
CrazyM
Sleep on it. 🙂
Mark
By: crazymainer - 9th September 2004 at 22:40
Make new one if we can……
******If you want to start preserving YOUR HISTORY then may I suggest you get a group together and go out and start recovering these Historical Aircraft*********posted by CRAZYMAINER
If it were that easy then we would all be doing it.
Also depends on where you want to source the parts and the there is the slight problem of cost which the majority of us brits simply dont have.
Merlin,
If one has to make new one then do hell most of the Flying Mustang and Spits are basically have all new Skin and Spars. Plus all of the Hose’s and Brakes andwiring you get were I’m going.
All you have to do is take alook what they are doing down inAussie land with the P-39 production line.
I didn’t say it was easy hell we have a hard time here in the States but Jeeze there are more Historical Wrecks Per Square Meter then anywhere else in the World.
Cees’s wrong Mr. Rhodes made at Statement saying that the UK Warbird Movement was becoming or has come to American and that certain Museums and gruops are to worry about the Sexxy planes and not about English Aircraft. As I said I owned a British type at one time and i’m looking at possiably another. As for sounding like GW well i’ll just sit back and Smile since most don’t even know my politics. As for me being over the top on the Wix Board well we have alittle old meeting set up with the powers to be in the US Navy to try to get things done, and would you like to know why its because of Helldiver and my comments and that a direct quote from the powers to be in the US Navy. I think maybe if you all don’t want me aroundf then I’ll Bugger off to someplace where I feel happy.
So on the Note I say FareWell Lads and lass’s on off to Never Never land.
Good By and be Safe out their.
Crazymainer
PS. Mark12 please disable all of my personal codes
By: jeepman - 9th September 2004 at 21:32
you’re not the only one, Cees
Many former early Wixers seem to have migrated over here recently, although a number of us seem to have adopted an alter ego (or egos)! 😉
Perhaps we emigrees all ought to use our proper names :dev2:
By: Merlin3945 - 9th September 2004 at 19:20
******If you want to start preserving YOUR HISTORY then may I suggest you get a group together and go out and start recovering these Historical Aircraft*********posted by CRAZYMAINER
If it were that easy then we would all be doing it.
Also depends on where you want to source the parts and the there is the slight problem of cost which the majority of us brits simply dont have.
By: HP57 - 9th September 2004 at 16:48
The problem with preserving and restoring vintage aircraft is that it takes so long to restore every one of them. It costs a lot of hard earned cash (speaking for private individuals) and parts are difficult to source or very expensive. Apart from that a lot of interesting developments have taken place the past decade, especially since the iron curtain was lifted and the number of restorable Hurricanes and 109’s exploded as well as scratching some aircraft types from the extinct list. Who knows what may yet to be discovered in that vast country and a lot of those aircraft were also British.
Of course we can all critisise the National Museums in the UK for concentrating more on the US types but a lot of those were used by the RAF as well. The preservation and restoration of types is an ongoing process and I’m sure the Shack and Victor will get their much earned treatment. Give these people or organisations a break and just look back and then again forward and see what happened in the meantime and the picture is getting more and more rosier. A decade ago the IWM didn’t have a complete Lanc, Hurricane, Heinkel III (albeit a Spanish version) and name some more but they are now restored or under restoration and this process will improve.
Restoring and flying warbirds is big business and only people with a lot of money can afford to do so, but others with a less healthy bank account have also proved that there are ways to make some very important contribution to the warbird community (looking at the projects to reconstruct a Whitley, Stirling, Hampden, etc). The fact that some UK types went abroad was because there was a lack of takers who would be willing to spend a lot of money on them. The Sunderland left because nobody wanted it, well so be it as long as the aircraft itself is taken care of it doesn’t matter where she resides.
Thanks Philip for starting this great topic and it’s great to read so many and varied opinions and that’s what this forum is all about.
The only thing that makes my hairs stand up in my neck is the replies by CrazyMainer who in general replies in the same fashion Mr Bush does in Global Politics (you are wrong….. we know what to do best….. and if you are not for us you are against…..). 😡
That’s what made me shy away from WIX unfortunately. Please Rob keep it civil. 😎
Personally I am amazed at the developments in the international warbirds scene and long may this continue.
Just my two eurocents of course
Cheers
Cees (ducking to avoid American ammo)
By: Mark12 - 9th September 2004 at 14:52
Me’s think with-in a year or so depending on effort and Money(Is’nt always money) she could be back in the Sky.Crazymainer
CrazyM
And how long did it take to get ‘Captain Eddies’ Firefly finally up and flying in the US? A year or so?
Crunch the numbers and do the maths on realistic labour hours and rates, plus parts, and you will most probably exceed the current market value by some margin. From an accountant’s point of view a poor investment for a private player. Lovely but not sexy enough I’m afraid.
Parties who bemoan the high price of the exotic Warbirds and their encumbered insurance costs sometimes don’t seem to realise that rising prices and values historically have been the greatest lubricant for more project start-ups.
Mark
By: Ashley - 9th September 2004 at 14:47
Peter…Richard Ashton joins the IWM as Director of IWM Duxford in October, so let’s wait and see…
Setter…when do you plan on coming to Duxford? If it’s a weekend I am sure a few of us could make it for a forum meet and greet 😀
By: setter - 9th September 2004 at 14:08
Well
Ashley
Kangaroos are smelly agro big buggers and can be a bit vicious, sort of like an antipodean Doberman on acid (bit like Australian blokes really) so I don’t really want to smuggle one into the UK not that you don’t deserve it but….
I think a couple of upper crust Red wines might do the trick (as suggested by JDK) and the Vegamite – anything else?
We will have to work out a meet up point to hand over the goods!!!!
JDK
Pleased you like Bearcats as one is coming to Brisbane so when you finally come home you can see one here. I would love to know which one – perhaps you are talking about it!!. Another Avenger is coming here as well and rumor has it so is the Firefly from the US so not a bad haul!!!
Regards
John P
By: Peter Mills - 9th September 2004 at 13:41
Phillip,
well said! This subject has been aired on a regular basis. Once again I notice that the US contigent is most vocal in their dissent. I believe that you had no intention of insulting the americans, but they sure can be touchy!
IWM is constantly complaining about lack of funds, yet receives what for some, are vast amounts. As is often the case it comes down to priorities and the management decisions that decide these. It’s quite clear that the IWM is firstly a commercially orientated organisation and therefore the decisions it makes are duly influenced this way. Until we get a change of emphasis/management this will always be the case. Poll the “forum members” to ask if they would rather money be spent on getting either a Spitfire or Shackleton into an airworthy state and I would bet the Shack would come a poor second. Some would even deny that a Shackleton is a warbird! It needs more people to raise their heads above the parapet, do not be bowed under by the flack coming from the P51/Spit lobby.
By: Yak 11 Fan - 9th September 2004 at 13:23
So Mr.Rhodes heres a chance for you to be a big Hero with your fellow UK Warbird Guys, why don’t you step right up and purchase the Firefly and bring it back home, before some Aussie or even worse Bloody Yank buys and puts it back into the Air.
Crazymainer
This being the former Royal Australian Navy Firefly which was origionally imported into the UK by Sir William Roberts in the 1970’s. Following a change of ownership in the UK it eventually ended up in America in the mid 80’s and has passed around a few owners since then with very little having been done to it.
By: JDK - 9th September 2004 at 13:18
Can I just point out here that each country has a diversity of opinion among its residents / nationals / denizens?
I don’t agree with everyone, nor do I expect to agree with everyone based on their nationality. So can we stop lumping everyone together based on prejudice? If a view comes up, it doesn’t mean that everyone from that country agrees!
By: JDK - 9th September 2004 at 12:08
I absolutely agree with Duxfordhawk’s post above. Incidentally, I rather think that the (in fact THAT) Bearcat does have quite a lot of UK history. Having watched master aerobatic pilots put it through its paces at many, many UK shows, Stephen Grey, Stefan Karwoski (sp?) being just two, over the last 20(?) years, I think that’s some history to remember…
Cheers
By: duxfordhawk - 9th September 2004 at 12:04
I have not read everyones replies here so if i repeat anything i am sorry,I thought about this long and hard and have realised yes we are missing many types but not everything can be saved for one.
We should be proud the we have rarer things like swordfish(soon 3 will be flying),Ansons Lancaster,Blenhiem(awaiting repair but lightly to fly again),Lysander,Gladiator,we now have several Hurricanes which means there role in Battle of Britain is at last more reconised,We have more Spitfires now than we could image during the 1980s,we should be proud.
Now to Sally B and B17s in general without B17s and her little friends P47 and P51 we would not have been able to win the war so many American service men were lost in the fight for Europe,They are very much part of our history and heritage and should be remembered.
Now to other american types flying with OFMC or TFC,
P40, served with the RAF so is part of UK history
Corsair ,served with Fleet air arm
Mustang ,served as little friend and with RAF also
P39, evaluated by RAF never taken up but ultra rare now and we should be proud to see one fly.
Wildcat,Served with UK yet again
Hellcat,Fleet air arm flew them
Bearcat,Lucky we can see one flying but does not have UK history.
Tigercat,rare and should be loved.
I could go on we should also remember the TFC will be putting a Gladiator,a Sea fury and Beaufighter in so our skies sometime in the future.
There are several other projects with British designs some will remain in the Uk such as Firefly and Tempest(i believe on is staying)and maybe we will get to see a Mossie fly sometime,We are doing ok in my view.
Now has anyone thought how few USA designed vintage jets we have flying on the Airshow scene?,Theres a whole new debate ,Remember we have the only flying F86a in the world and only other American designed jet i can think of is the T33.
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September 8, 2004 at 2:59 pm