'World War II- Battlefield Recovery'…UK Channel 5 TV

[QUOTE=Beermat;2288546]That Powell quote about ‘fighting for freedom beyond our borders’ (something Putin likes to say, too) makes one think.. Does what they were fighting for, what they thought they were fighting for, and what politicians actually sent them to war for, relevant? If so, should Nazi war dead actually be treated with less respect than those of democracies? no as long as they were not convicted of war crimes…

A government sends the troops to war and its a oft used saying “a soldier does what he is ordered to do”, but some do more than they need to…and in general the bad taint the average soldier. In the second world war all the german’s were Nazis, and the ss were all killers, but I think in the main most were as Tony T says

people join the military to serve their country to the best of their ability, often paying with the ultimate sacrifice and putting their lives on the line, the vast majority of all forces are simply average guys drafted off the street fighting to protect their families and country.

I’ve got my Sunday head on,
regards,

jack…

That Powell quote about ‘fighting for freedom beyond our borders’ (something Putin likes to say, too) makes one think.. Does what they were fighting for, what they thought they were fighting for, and what politicians actually sent them to war for, relevant? If so, should Nazi war dead actually be treated with less respect than those of democracies?

I mean, I agree with you, Jack. My issue is with those who can’t help waving flags over shell-scrape graves.

Selling found artifacts sounds tacky to me, but then again a lot of us have been involved in commercial activity that is only made viable by other people’s interest in war. Selling artifacts from a caravan on a battlefield is just a version that brings an unavoidable focus to the nature of such things.

All of you on this page are totally missing the point, people join the military to serve their country to the best of their ability, often paying with the ultimate sacrifice and putting their lives on the line, the vast majority of all forces are simply average guys drafted off the street fighting to protect their families and country.

i saw this on another site “A vet whether active duty, retired, or reserve is someone who at some point in his life wrote a blank cheque, made payable to the United States of America, for an amount of up to and including my life.”

I think this is a statement/description valued in any country of their armed service’s.

No matter their religion, belief or doctrine, those that gave all and have fallen deserve to be given the respect and dignity of being allowed to rest in peace, whether laid to rest in a shell scrape by their colleagues and friends or immortalized in one of the military cemeteries that litter the countries of the world.

Finally an answer by Colin Powell so an American view on the rights of their dead ” over the years the United States has sent many of its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom beyond our borders, the only amount of land we have ever asked for in return is enough to bury those who did not return”.

As I say an American view on both points but I think relevant …

regards,
jack…

I was apalled last time I was touring the Western Front to find a caravan parked at one of the craters selling WW1 artefacts that had patently been unearthed.

I don’t know why, but it struck me as very tacky.

But I guess as Stuart says, if by this route they find their way to somebody for whom it has meaning, it’s not all bad?

Moggy

“Turns out it was just a bunch of amatuers kicking about a woodland looking for Nazi trinkets to gloat over”.

No real change there then, I’d say most “battlefield” digs are (and have always been) conducted by amateurs, many of which are more interested in the items recovered than the human story.

There is a huge trade in recovered “artifacts” all around the world, ironically some of the purchasers of these finds, probably have more empathy with the fallen soldiers (from which they came) than the diggers that recover them; I have a few recovered items, some with histories, some without, I certainly don’t treat them as trophies, they are incorporated into my project, and periodically I think about those individuals, some were lost at the time, but mostly they are all gone now.

Am I missing something, or has the programme shown the recovery of any aircraft yet?

No, nor will it.

This was remarked early on, but we decided to let it run.

Moggy
Moderator

When the scruffy looking bloke in mud-stained clothes with straggly hair handed over the box of remains with a display of (to me) ham-acted reverence, it left a sour taste in my mouth. The whole thing smacks of amateurish recklessness.

Edit: Having read the whole of this thread and associated articles now, I realise that my post doesn’t actually add anything to the debate. However, I felt I had to have my say.

Am I missing something, or has the programme shown the recovery of any aircraft yet?
I have to say, the whole excavation of that dead German in Episode 2 made me cringe. It just didn’t sit right with me, filming a dead soldier being pulled out of the ground just to get viewers for a TV show. It is admirable that they had the body buried properly in a registered war cemetery but even so…

When is the last time the remains of a pilot were left in the ground with the wreck of his aircraft ?

Whilst I am not qualified to say it was the last time, last April Echt council regretfully decided not to recover a Stirling bomber. The remains of several crew members are thought to be still on board.

You just don’t get it do you Alan

With respect, I think I do

You just don’t get it do you Alan, there is a subtle difference between remains accidentally being unearthed and maybe not even seen, to going out and deliberately digging up the remains of the fallen with the hope you may also find some of his equipment with him.. especially since the identities of those fallen may well have been known.
You try to dig an Aircraft site in the UK that has remains on board still, you will rapidly see the folly of your ways.
You will also find that when bones are accidentally found work tends to stop, the police and coroner are informed and the remains are recovered in a dignified manner for reburial. There is a subtle difference between those that do this on behalf of the state with the sole intention to bring closure and families and repatriate and reinter those remains, and those that do it simply to make a TV show!

I suppose you would be quite happy with a film crew turfing up at your local church cemetery and starting to exhume the bodies of those who had died in the last 70 years, heck you might find the odd wedding ring or pieces of jewellery on them, that will make great TV for you. 🙁

No matter their religion, belief or doctrine, those that gave all and have fallen deserve to be given the respect and dignity of being allowed to rest in peace, whether laid to rest in a shell scrape by their colleagues and friends or immortalized in one of the military cemeteries that litter the countries of the world.

..

That is until someone decides to build, or put a road through where they are buried. When they’ll probably end up being
dug out by a JCB, and deposited in the back of a truck. Or their bones are spread across a field by ploughing.

At least with the teams recovering soldiers remains, there is a chance of them being identified, and given a proper burial.
When is the last time the remains of a pilot were left in the ground with the wreck of his aircraft ?

Compare it to this – a completely different league – why would you not take this approach?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTpAXE4WIJM

All of you on this page are totally missing the point, people join the military to serve their country to the best of their ability, often paying with the ultimate sacrifice and putting their lives on the line, the vast majority of all forces are simply average guys drafted off the street fighting to protect their families and country.

No matter their religion, belief or doctrine, those that gave all and have fallen deserve to be given the respect and dignity of being allowed to rest in peace, whether laid to rest in a shell scrape by their colleagues and friends or immortalized in one of the military cemeteries that litter the countries of the world.

Double standards come to the fore in my mind, the outrage bus rode into town ( and quite rightly so ) with the desecration of the Australian military headstones in London, the toppling of British commonwealth gravestones in Libya and the myriad of memorial plaques stolen throughout the country for the gain of a financial pittance.

But this is taking it to a totally new level, this is the abhorrent act of grave robbing plain and simple and no one deserves that, no matter what side they fought on, no matter what their ideology and no matter what religion they believed in, in death everyone is equal, it is for good reason that in the Services we remember them every day at dawn and dusk……..

It may surprise you, but even Hitler gave orders that the Commonwealth cemeteries and memorials in France and Belgium were not to be damaged. How ironic we are sadly now doing exactly what the “monster” of the Second World War wouldn’t sanction or do himself, just to make a poxy TV programme.

..

As opposed to Soviet atrocities in the Baltic States?…

It really doesn’t matter whoes side those soldiers were fighting for their remains deserved better treatment. Those old battlefields deserved more than the damage done for such little gain in knowledge. And those that do responsibly excavate recent military sites, recover and protect artifacts and help repatriate the missing dead deserve more than to have their reputations tarnished by that lot.

Nazi atrocities! What were those then? :stupid:

I should have perhaps added Nazi atrocities, specifically, in Latvia.

Nazi atrocities! What were those then? :stupid:

I would hardly think if the program makers had chosen to dig up the site of a battlefield in the same manner that involved British soldiers, with the same regard to any human remains found, I doubt you would be playing Devil’s advocate.

I also highly doubt that Channel 5 would show it.

Ironic that this series chose Latvia for the digs; and that it is the (presumably deliberate) digging of German, that is Nazi, positions that has provoked such outrage.

I hope nobody is forgetting any of the atrocities carried out by that same Nazi regime and the treatment of the dead, and living, bodies of those that they murdered (in Latvia).

Well it was worth it just for the song!!!! 😀