WORLDS MOST POWERFUL NATIONS – 2003!!!

RE: Cyrus…..

“I mean, you sure enjoy sticking your nose in other peoples business too!”

I don’t recall the last time Sam bombed anyone because they didn’t do as they were told when they were told.
Not that there is anything implicitly wrong with that except if you did do it would you still expect to be loved and respected by all.

…and God on the eigth day created America and he realised his creation was now perfect so he took a week off…

RE: Cyrus…..

Sam…you must really respect the U.S. and its foreign policy huh?

I mean, you sure enjoy sticking your nose in other peoples business too!

At least Geforce has a sense of humor…since most of what I post is intended purely as such….the rest is only intended to get lively and heated debate started. }>

RE: WORLDS MOST POWERFUL NATIONS – 2003!!!

Ahh, he’s not that bad. He’s only insulting his own country :7. You can only discuss with him if you’re also a pain in the ass. }> He makes me laugh often.

RE: Cyrus…..

Thanks Sam, but Cyrus’s are going to continue to pop up from time to time. I admit this one is a little more insulting to those here but really his attitude is the same as some posters we’ve had before… mirage springs immediately to mind but there have been others and there will be more in the future.
I am sure to many here I seemed like a pro Russian version of him, though I would like to think I have not personally insulted people or countries the way he has. }>

Cyrus…..

Cyrus_666,

GarryB is a respected and a long standing member of this forum. If you can’t have a civil discussion get the hell outta here. You’ve been here less than 3 weeks and have the audacity to disrespect people here. Get yourself in order, or you will be banned.

Sam.

RE: GaryB

“In that case the president would not have needed to flee away and hide in a bar…”

He wasn’t hiding…he was celebrating the fact he had just suckered the Brits to do what he couldn’t convince the American people to pay for…burn down the white house and renovate it, so as to remove the stench that was created when the French ambassador had come for a visit the year prior. }>

RE: GaryB

Cyruss,

A little while ago (early 2002 BC – before Cyruss), a post was started where members were invited to display their photos on the forum.

That thread has run its course, but perhaps it needs reviving.

Care to be first cab off the rank, so that we can see just how dashingly good looking you really are, or is the photo of the S.O.L. that accompanies your messages an improvement on the real you?

Regards

The Wombat

RE: GaryB

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 19-09-02 AT 06:03 AM (GMT)]>Btw, if your “defense” theory is to hold any water it must
>be applied equitably, and that would mean that the U.S.
>would still be at the top of the list…no foreign power has
>been able to come onto our soil and conquer us either.

Burning down the White House in 1812 doesn’t count? I guess that makes Canada the world’s most powerful nation.

Edit: Oh, yes, of course! The French weren’t able to help the US back then, if so the Canadians wouldn’t have come close to your proud capital. In that case the president would not have needed to flee away and hide in a bar…

RE: GaryB

“It shows those thinkers that are on the fence what some Americans are like.”

And what would that be exactly? (Besides dashingly good looking and far superior to lacky like yourself.) 😉

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Btw, if your “defense” theory is to hold any water it must be applied equitably, and that would mean that the U.S. would still be at the top of the list…no foreign power has been able to come onto our soil and conquer us either.

RE: GaryB

“”We are not talking about defence… if we were Sweden would be at the top of the list.”

LAUGH! I can’t wait for you to qualify that statement. Lets hear it.”

OK lets assume you are right and we can include defencive capability.
This means that Vietnam would have to be higher on the list than the US and the French and New Zealand, and Canada, and Australia.
Cuba would also be above the US… the US has declared cuba to be an enemy and invaded once yet Castro has outlived about 8 US presidents in power by now…
North Korea must be near the top… after all it fought the whole of the UN to a stalemate.

“2) doesn’t matter, after the U.S. no one comes close enough to deserve a rating. “

Hahahaha.
I guess future discussions we have to look forward to having with you will involve the superiority of all things American… simply because they are American and everything else is just a bad copy of American stuff.

I think you are really an Al quada plant and this is just an act to drum up anti American fervour… It is working… I am feeling less and less sympathy for the 11/9 victims… if Vort and Mixtec weren’t here I’m pretty sure your words would make me into what you have been accusing me and others here of… ie a US-Basher.
Keep it up though… I shows those thinkers that are on the fence what some Americans are like.

GaryB

“We are not talking about defence… if we were Sweden would be at the top of the list.”

LAUGH! I can’t wait for you to qualify that statement. Lets hear it.

Just for you Gary, I’ll revise my list….

1) United States

2) doesn’t matter, after the U.S. no one comes close enough to deserve a rating. 😉

RE: WORLDS MOST POWERFUL NATIONS – 2003!!!

“I guess you can do the math yourself. You can do simple math can’t you? “

We are not talking about defence… if we were Sweden would be at the top of the list.
If Australia invaded China would the US help?
Of course not.
Australia probably couldn’t even take on Indonesia… (not really a shock people wise Indonesia has 80 million plus more people).
Power is determined by ability to go anywhere and take on anyone and have a good chance of doing serious damage.
This is why Russia is no longer considered a superpower… of course they have never needed or wanted such capability… all of their enemys share a border.
Britain has also slipped because it no longer is able to mount an attack like it did in 1982… of course with improved runways and increased forces down there it doesn’t need to now.
The French probably couldn’t do it either but then they don’t need to anyway.

RE: WORLDS MOST POWERFUL NATIONS – 2003!!!

“Hehehehe… interesting.
You think Australia is more powerful than china simply because it is America’s B!tch…”

Hehehehe….YEAH!

If China were to launch an attack against Australia…I guarantee you the US would respond in kind against China. Since America is #1 on everyone’s list…well, I guess you can do the math yourself. You can do simple math can’t you? Or are you uneducated as well as ignorant?

RE: WORLDS MOST POWERFUL NATIONS – 2003!!!

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 17-09-02 AT 08:57 AM (GMT)]Hehehehe… interesting.
You think Australia is more powerful than china simply because it is America’s B!tch…

Funny how these super dangerous axis of evil rogue nations feature in noones list… I’d have thought listening to Bush that Iraq would be top….

RE: WORLDS MOST POWERFUL NATIONS – 2003!!!

Well, here’s my list…and its a short one:

1) United States of America

2) Any country alligned with the United States of America*

3) Russia

4) China

5) India

*This only goes for countries willing to walk-the-walk, and not just talk-the-talk. (Examples: Yes = UK, Australia, Israel / No = France, Germany, Saudi Arabia)

RE: WORLDS MOST POWERFUL NATIONS – 2003!!!

“Also the range for Moskit is rather larger than 100km… it also entered service before the Falklands war so it is hardly cutting edge technology… though the US would like to test a few.”

A conflict in which the Brits deployed ships with the most modern air defense equipment only to be defeated by Skyhawks dropping out-dated free-fall bombs.

Being current and up-to date isn’t always what matters most.

RE: WORLDS MOST POWERFUL NATIONS – 2003!!!

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 09-09-02 AT 02:24 PM (GMT)]”china also purchased their asociated technologies and are building chinese counterparts which can rival or even exceed the russian originals.”

I have only read the first article link you posted but I have a few problems with it.

“And they are incomparably more advanced than two Luhai-class destroyers, the best and largest Chinese-made naval vessels, whose construction was finished in Dalian in 1997 and 2000, respectively (there is some uncertainty regarding the second destroyer).”

This is very true… the Soveremmeny’s are a huge step forward for the chinese. The time it will take to learn how to use them well, and to introduce their advanced features in new designs means the results of their introduction into service will not be realised for some time to come.

“The Chinese were primarily attracted by the Moskit anti-ship strike system with its supersonic missiles, which NATO calls the “aircraft-carrier destroyer.” Two 956 E destroyers, received in 1999-2000, increased greatly PLAN’s capability regarding conflict with U.S. Navy aircraft carrier groups. And there is information that the two new 956EM destroyers, which Severnaya Verf has begun to build, are to be equipped with more improved weapons, namely, Yakhont systems, whose effective range reaches 280 km (as opposed to 100 km for the Moskit missiles).”

The Moskits were actually designed to defeat AEGIS… to defeat carriers you need tremendous anti air capability as well which is not likely to be fitted to one ship.
In other words to defeat a carrier you need more than one (or two) ships armed with Moskits… you need Slavas and Kirovs and quite a few Sovremmeny’s and some Kuznetsovs or land based fighters wouldn’t hurt either… not to mention attack subs.
Also the range for Moskit is rather larger than 100km… it also entered service before the Falklands war so it is hardly cutting edge technology… though the US would like to test a few.

“Important comment: The Yakhont missile launcher and its anti-ship missile are much more compact than the Moskit (Sunburn) launcher and its missile. That’s why it is possible to deploy, on a 956EM destroyer, at least 16 Yakhont systems (up to 24, according to some sources). One 956EM could have the combat potential of two to three 956E destroyers! “

There is no reason why 956E vessels will not eventually be fitted with the Onyx and its use domestically would mean no range limitations. (There are currently export restrictions on the export of missiles with rather long ranges (3-500km)).

“Beijing plans to install the RIF complexes, with a 120-km range, on two new-generation missile destroyers to be built in China by 2005”

Sounds like they might be planning a carrier???

“As the authors mentioned in the recently published article “Chinese multi-level air-defense network,” sometime in April 2002 Russia and China signed a contract to sell two S-300F (RIF) ship-borne anti-aircraft complexes to China for $200 million. Beijing plans to install the RIF complexes, with a 120-km range, on two new-generation missile destroyers to be built in China by 2005.

According to Hong Kong media reports in mid-June, these two destroyers aren’t inferior to the Sovremenny 956EM; they will be constructed by “436th plant” (evidently, in Dalian) and use Chinese-made gas-turbine engines of 26,700 kW capacity. Earlier, China had to import these engines from Ukraine; now China is capable of producing them (based on technology from the Ukrainian Zarya Corp.). “

So the air defence missiles will be Russian and the propulsion will be Ukrainian… how much of this Chinese ship will actually be chinese?

“The Shkval torpedo, whose speed reaches 100 meters per second. After launch under water, it flies through the air and descends by parachute into the region where the hostile ship was detected and then again travels under water. Under such conditions the commander of the targeted submarine simply cannot perform an anti-torpedo maneuver. Incidentally, the Russian navy has no ships yet with such a weapon. In 2001, China acquired at least 40 Shkval torpedoes from Russia and/or Kazakhstan. It is supposed to use them on “093 project” nuclear submarines also. “

Sounds like a little confusion here… The Shkval rocket powered torpedo is just that… a torpedo. It uses rocket propulsion and travels at 90-100m/s. It is widely used by Soviet and Russian subs as a short range last ditch weapon. (due to the short detection ranges of very quiet subs including deisel electrics). It can also be ship launched or fired from a fixed underwater instalation. In the ship launch configuration it acts like a standard ship launched torpedo and does not fly any great distance in the air. (Range is approximately 7km with a hit probability of 0.8).
The subsurface launch with air phase of flight with terminal homing torpedo suggests SS-N-15 or SS-N-16. (As far as I know the Medvedka is only available in surface launched verisons).

Please don’t get me wrong I have a lot of respect for the Chinese.
They will learn a great deal from the Russians and both will benefit from this relationship.
They also have a long way to go too however and having even 8 good destroyers is not yet a good challange to what the US could deploy in the region if they wanted to.
Nor is paper capability that important if the enemy uses their heads… only a fool would create a powerful anti carrier force and neglect having good capabilities in anti sub and anti air. Anti sub forces are expensive and very highly technical… perhaps their next purchases will include Tu-142s????

RE: WORLDS MOST POWERFUL NATIONS – 2003!!!

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 08-09-02 AT 08:08 PM (GMT)]well i think we have been able to get ourselves into a vitious circle. u make an argument, i make a counter argument, and u make a counter to that… we can go on for another hundred posts and we would still be where we r now. i dont know abt u, but thats not the way i want to spend my free time.

right now, we can both agree that

1)both china and india are growing powers with unlimited platential.

2)both of our countries have been missrepresented by western media.

3)both countries harbor ambitions to become future superpowers.

4)the ture power of a nation is measured not only in its present military power, but more importantly, upon its industrial infastructure, ecinomy, tech level and population(not just number of citizens, but also the amount and quality of education recived).

5)and finally, both of us have much that we dont fully understand or know abt the other’s country.

the feilds in which we disagree r so many that there is no point in mentioning them all now.

so i propose a compramise. lets concentrate on a few specific subjects at a time and try to change each other’s minds, as oppose to just listing the things we dont agree with, and then putting forward our own oppinons, which the other will disagree with.

first thing that i chose to discuss is the degree of self relience in our respective armed forces.

u doubt china’s ability to produce the new advanced russian weapon systems that we r buying at the moment. that is understandable as a result of the vail of secricy china throws upon pretty much everything. but recent articles posted on newsmax.com states that as well as the weaponry themselves, china also purchased their asociated technologies and are building chinese counterparts which can rival or even exceed the russian originals.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/7/30/141937.shtml
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/7/8/165529.shtml
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/17/163116.shtml

those few article that i have posted should make good bed time reading for u. but, as u can see, the newsmax gang is in the paranoied catagory, and so they may have manipulated some info to make china seem worse then it is, or as a bigger theart to the world as it is. never the less, most of the infomation the use and some of the conclusions the draw seem to be beleivable and modistly fair, so it is worth taking them into consideration.

i concied that i dont know much abt the indian armed forces, but i trust u will inlighten me shortly.

another one of ur comments that i must protest is ur view of chinese education based on my ‘poor knowlegde of english grammer and geography’.

im sure that i do not need to point out to u that we are all good at different things, and im affriad languages is not really my cup of tea. also, if ur english is much superior to mine, as u seem to suggest, then u should have picked up my comment that i do not study world geography.

there r many other small things u said that i disagree with, but i think i will leave them for another day.

RE: WORLDS MOST POWERFUL NATIONS – 2003!!!

india’s army’s experience level is debatable. fighting lightly armed garrilers is quite different from fighting well equiped and originised armies.

What in the world do you think happened in 1947,1962,1965,1971,1986 and 1999?

RE: WORLDS MOST POWERFUL NATIONS – 2003!!!

In Europe we look at China as one big market which could benefit our own economy. My brother works for a software company (making programs for cinema’s, dancings, restaurants, pubs etc.). Their ultimate goal is to achieve some contracts in China.

Anyone who sees China as some kind of backward country which only goal is to piss of the United States by invading Taiwan should really do some research.