Worlds most unsafe airline

Generally when I suggest someone avoids something it is because it is bad or harmful.

“making mistakes SHOULD NOT be acceptable for an airline, of course now on the point that no airline perfect, but near perfection is important. Thats why people avoid airlines like Aeroflot.”

The inference is that Aeroflot makes mistakes and makes no effort to correct or learn from these mistakes.
(of course there is no supporting evidence of this either so we can merely take it as speculation.)

Originally posted by GarryB
“Well you were the one who gave the spanner example….why take it to loosing parts on take-off and landing? Thats a totaly different thing!”

A loose spanner inside an undercarriage bay might remain in place for a takeoff, but if it is dislodged during landing what do you have then? Totally different?

“The corruption, lack of controls, and the general economic situation in their countries of origin have created a nightmare.”

In such an environment is it reasonable to expect anything else?
In fact don’t you think that goes some way to explaining:

“I don’t claim that accidents, bad safety procedures and maintenance is restricted to “eastern-block” aircraft and airlines, just that their occurance is more frequent.”

Interesting that you can state categorically that there are problems with safety procedures and maintainence, yet you have no figures backing that up. Eastern maintainence has been called unefficient and uneconomical, but rarely a source of problems. One of the most uneconomical aspects of Eastern Maintainence regimes is that parts are often discarded at set times or mileages rather than the state of the part requires it.

“Give me one instance where i said Aeroflot is a bad airline?”

How about:

“Thats why people avoid airlines like Aeroflot.”

“Agreed Aeroflot maybe bad within Russia.”

AVOID and MAYBE are the words i used……that means bad?

“Well you were the one who gave the spanner example….why take it to loosing parts on take-off and landing? Thats a totaly different thing!”

A loose spanner inside an undercarriage bay might remain in place for a takeoff, but if it is dislodged during landing what do you have then? Totally different?

“The corruption, lack of controls, and the general economic situation in their countries of origin have created a nightmare.”

In such an environment is it reasonable to expect anything else?
In fact don’t you think that goes some way to explaining:

“I don’t claim that accidents, bad safety procedures and maintenance is restricted to “eastern-block” aircraft and airlines, just that their occurance is more frequent.”

Interesting that you can state categorically that there are problems with safety procedures and maintainence, yet you have no figures backing that up. Eastern maintainence has been called unefficient and uneconomical, but rarely a source of problems. One of the most uneconomical aspects of Eastern Maintainence regimes is that parts are often discarded at set times or mileages rather than the state of the part requires it.

“Give me one instance where i said Aeroflot is a bad airline?”

How about:

“Thats why people avoid airlines like Aeroflot.”

“Agreed Aeroflot maybe bad within Russia.”

“If, my aunt, who is by any standards a terrible driver, is involved in 10 accidents, 9 of which have been “officially” attributed to her, then, I think everyone is excused if they blame her for the 10th, even prematurely.”

I don’t know your aunt, but if she was not at fault for her 10th time would she appreciate you suggesting she was?
By insinuation are you suggesting that Aeroflot only hire bad drivers, just on the basis of a few incidents?

I guess it is not possible that their might be a few more reported accidents for Aeroflot… at one time the worlds largest airline, and operating in some of the harshest places on earth on quite a regular basis, and for quite some time in a seriously bad financial condition.

Give me one instance where i said Aeroflot is a bad airline?

“Thats why people avoid airlines like Aeroflot.”

Yet they posted a profit for the first time this year of 100 million dollars.
It seems not everyone is avoiding them.

You have yet to show Aeroflot make more mistakes than other airlines, yet you stick to the claim that it is a poor airline.
Why?

Ok can anyone say the airline that has the cleanest record?

Originally posted by GarryB
“Well you were the one who gave the spanner example….why take it to loosing parts on take-off and landing? Thats a totaly different thing!”

No, if you read my post properly:

“You mean noone in their employment ever made any mistakes… forgot a bolt or lost a spanner… impressive.”

You’ll see I wasn’t refering to just losing spanners, but to making mistakes and mentioned losing blots or spanners as examples SOME of the mistakes I meant… or do you expect me to list ever possible error everyone in an airline might make?

Thats the whole damn point, what i said earlier, making mistakes SHOULD NOT be acceptable for an airline, of course now on the point that no airline perfect, but near perfection is important. Thats why people avoid airlines like Aeroflot.

“Well you were the one who gave the spanner example….why take it to loosing parts on take-off and landing? Thats a totaly different thing!”

No, if you read my post properly:

“You mean noone in their employment ever made any mistakes… forgot a bolt or lost a spanner… impressive.”

You’ll see I wasn’t refering to just losing spanners, but to making mistakes and mentioned losing blots or spanners as examples SOME of the mistakes I meant… or do you expect me to list ever possible error everyone in an airline might make?

“As I said earlier there is always the “record” and the image of each airline.”

Quite true but then the image of certain airlines and companies has been marked in the past by the fact that they were considered the bad guys… the Americans and many others even called them an evil empire.

Also the fact that Interflug62M… one of the few people here who says they have actually flown with an airline in question has stated that they were no worse than any other airline regarding safety suggests that it is not record, but Image that is the problem here.

“Your example of the mid-air collision involving the Russian and the “western” aircraft, admittedly shows prejudice, but this prejudice is not completely unfounded.”

In the case I mentioned it was completely unfounded. The Swiss controllers made several procedural mistakes and then compounded their error by lying to try to cover up what really happened.

Several people here have stated they don’t know what actual record Aeroflot actually have, but they feel free to criticise their maintainence and procedures standards… assuming these are bad.
With what I have read on this thread I think this is probably based on image and not record… or for that matter reality, but if it makes some feel good to bash an airline because it used to be commie then go ahead. Why stop there… lets laugh at some asian airlines, or those dumb arabs that can’t fligh for themselves, and what about those Black Africans… I guess their image has medicine men blessing every aircraft to make them fly and having cows and chickens in business class… not on plates… in the overhead storage cupboards.

But no, I am over reacting… the bigotry against former enemy commies is different from earlier bigotry against Asian, or Arab, or any people with skin colours that are not quite white. (Amusing that so many white people spend so much time and money trying to get a tan.).

“that happens….a Saudi B747 almost was brought down by Indian Air Force after it was approaching a IAFB instead of Chennai International Airport!”

well we must never forget the incident where a US Airline landed at Brussels because they thought it was Amsterdam despite the repeated warnings of the ATC!!!!!!!!

Well you were the one who gave the spanner example….why take it to loosing parts on take-off and landing? Thats a totaly different thing!

“Why you don’t seem to understand that mishaps and ”human error” is one thing and continuous negligence and disregard for the safety rules is another?”

Where has this distinction been made?

There have been stories of lost wheels and low fuel levels leading to problems and the conclusion drawn is that the airline in question must be unsafe and some posters would never fly on them.

“1st: Well is loosing a spanner or somethin like that hazardous for an airline?”

How about losing a part from your aircraft during takeoff or landing and not reporting it… isn’t that how you bring down the first ever concorde?

Loose spanners in the wrong place can bring down an aircraft… not that hazardous for the airline.. it’ll probably survive, but the people on board the plane might not approve.

“Well, it depends on what they did with the captain.If they diciplined him enough, o.k, otherwise I’d say they have a lousy safety policy.”

He probably won’t continue to rise through the ranks, but his pension is probably safe.
Of course the fact that he left the scene and didn’t help search for survivors would make him guilty of a crime if he had used a car instead of a billion dollar US Sub.

“GaryB, judging from your postings elswere in this forum, I thought you were a sensible man.”

Normally I am, but when I see posts like
“Never flew Aeroflot , and I never will. I’d rather walk !!!!”

I assume it is either not a serious discussion or a bit of Soviet bashing… the latter is not something I back away from.

After Interflug62M stated he had travelled on Aeroflot and found them “no more unsafe than many “western ones” in view of the huge number of flights/tasks undertaken and people/cargo carried.”

Zippo said “I know things have improved in many ways in the former “Eastern” airlines, but old habits and attitudes are harder to change.The recent accidents involving ex-soviet aircraft and/or operators are the proof.”

How about the recent incident with the Russian airliner and the cargo jet collision… blamed initially on the Russian airliner… of course because they lack procedures and modern equipment and don’t listen to controllers.
2 aircraft destroyed and 71 people dead, added to aeroflots stats I guess…

I’d say Cubana or China Airlines, i’d avoid both.

Originally posted by GarryB
“Air Tahiti Nui, Jet Airways and some more.”

You mean noone in their employment ever made any mistakes… forgot a bolt or lost a spanner… impressive.

“So are you suggesting an airline will only change after they kill some 100 people?”

Are you suggesting that one crash due to pilot error damns an airline for all eternity?

1st: Well is loosing a spanner or somethin like that hazardous for an airline?

2nd: Yes one crash due to piloy error brings the airline drasticaly down in the eyes of the public.

“Air Tahiti Nui, Jet Airways and some more.”

You mean noone in their employment ever made any mistakes… forgot a bolt or lost a spanner… impressive.

“So are you suggesting an airline will only change after they kill some 100 people?”

Are you suggesting that one crash due to pilot error damns an airline for all eternity?

Originally posted by GarryB
“What exactly you are refferring to here?”

The US Submarine captain and crew that killed those Japanese people near hawaii because they had guests on board and they didn’t follow proper procedure for surfacing.

“Is your point that it’s o.k. to give the controls of an airliner to a kid?”

No, my point is that when guests are present few people act at work like they would when there are no guests there… are you going to judge a whole airline (or in my example a whole navy) on the actions of one captain? (for who else should take responsibility?)

“Now, you can call this “something to laugh about in the pub”, but as far as I’m concerned I will avoid this carrier like the plague. “

Does an airline exist that has a perfect record… with no crashes or incidents? …I guess you must walk a lot.

“Maybe u go and laugh about that in the pib….but the authorities and the airline wont do that.”

Please reread:

But surely the main difference between crashes and incidents is that the first involves a good likelyhood of injuries and or death, whereas an incident might just be something you laugh about when you get to the pub.

Note the words “might just be”. If you think safety comes from sour faced airline reps that crack down hard on every little thing then I am glad I don’t work for you. Do you really think such attitudes make the world a safer place? Obviously you have to be professional about things, but being professional and being anal are not the same thing.

So are you suggesting an airline will only change after they kill some 100 people?

And you say no perfect airline exists….of course they do, Air Tahiti Nui, Jet Airways and some more.

“What exactly you are refferring to here?”

The US Submarine captain and crew that killed those Japanese people near hawaii because they had guests on board and they didn’t follow proper procedure for surfacing.

“Is your point that it’s o.k. to give the controls of an airliner to a kid?”

No, my point is that when guests are present few people act at work like they would when there are no guests there… are you going to judge a whole airline (or in my example a whole navy) on the actions of one captain? (for who else should take responsibility?)

“Now, you can call this “something to laugh about in the pub”, but as far as I’m concerned I will avoid this carrier like the plague. “

Does an airline exist that has a perfect record… with no crashes or incidents? …I guess you must walk a lot.

“Maybe u go and laugh about that in the pib….but the authorities and the airline wont do that.”

Please reread:

But surely the main difference between crashes and incidents is that the first involves a good likelyhood of injuries and or death, whereas an incident might just be something you laugh about when you get to the pub.

Note the words “might just be”. If you think safety comes from sour faced airline reps that crack down hard on every little thing then I am glad I don’t work for you. Do you really think such attitudes make the world a safer place? Obviously you have to be professional about things, but being professional and being anal are not the same thing.

that happens….a Saudi B747 almost was brought down by Indian Air Force after it was approaching a IAFB instead of Chennai International Airport!

Originally posted by GarryB
[B]”You are saying there is a correlation between incidents and crashes.
Therefore airlines who have more incidents are more prone to have crashes.”

“if u stress on the word “prone”….yes.”

But surely the main difference between crashes and incidents is that the first involves a good likelyhood of injuries and or death, whereas an incident might just be something you laugh about when you get to the pub.

Maybe u go and laugh about that in the pib….but the authorities and the airline wont do that.

“You are saying there is a correlation between incidents and crashes.
Therefore airlines who have more incidents are more prone to have crashes.”

“if u stress on the word “prone”….yes.”

But surely the main difference between crashes and incidents is that the first involves a good likelyhood of injuries and or death, whereas an incident might just be something you laugh about when you get to the pub.

The fact that a certain airline prevented a pilot and co-pilot from getting on board an aircraft because they were both drunk would count as two incidents… would you prefer they let him fly and just have a single crash instead?

“The one with the child in the cockpit was an Aeroflot A310. Apparantly, the pilot let his kid in the cockpit and gave him controls of the plane. “

..something you can do in surfacing submarines, but not aircraft it seems…

The one with the child in the cockpit was an Aeroflot A310. Apparantly, the pilot let his kid in the cockpit and gave him controls of the plane. The rest, as they say, is history. As far as that Tu-154 goes, if it was one of the main bogey wheels, well, they had 5 more after that one!