Worth a restore, or sell for scrap?

Thanks for bumping this thread and the heads-up on the exhibition!

Such a shame that 90 years Dutch Naval Air Service will be without the P-3 Orions… 🙁

My apologies for resurrecting this thread, but i would like to point out that late July the Aviodrome will start a special exhibition on the Dutch Naval Air Arm.

To that end the ROC aviation college in Hoofddorp has moved their Tracker to the Aviodrome. It left on a barge two days ago and is expected to arrive today. The Tracker will become part of the special exhibition. No word on if it will be indoors or outdoors, but since it will “regularly run its engines and fold/unfold the wings” it seems likely to be outdoors. No word either on whether the ROC wants the Tracker back after the exhibition.

Of course this does mean that, at least for the time being, the Aviodrome will have two Trackers. What is to happen with the first one has not been revealed.

Dutch only:
http://aviodrome.nl/actueel/nieuws/2007/07-05.asp

Aviodrome

Guys

I recied a reply form Aviodrome and they are going to repaint her and display her for an upcoming event. They will revert back to me after that time if they decide to make her avalible.

At least she is going to get new paint and I hope they repair the corrosion.

I will keep all posted.

David

I agree Melvyn!

If there are relatively good condition ones sitting around and airworthy go for $79K to $150K then it is a good clue that it is not economically viable to restore one from scratch.

It is a shame to see any aircraft rotting away but if there is no role for it it play, be it water bomber, display aircraft or private transport, then it is redundant and its future is uncertain. It costs money to even store aeroplanes and that has to come form somewhere, in the case of musums often from other projects.

Certainly rebuilding one would cost WAY more than buying a good one. Get this in perspective, with the dollar rate as it was yesterday $79K is £36K or the cost of a good Supercub.

Remember, if everything was saved we’d soon run out of space.

There’s a bunch of Trackers sitting off in the grass at Abbotsford International Airport in British Columbia. I think they may be using some of them as spares for our water bombers. Some of them appear to be in good physical condition. It’s such a shame to see aircraft sit and waste away…

Todd

Thank you all for the information in regards to 159. I have contacted Aviodrome to find out if anything can be done and I hopefully will get a response soon. RonaldV if there is any chance of additional pictures; especially of the inside this would be fantastic. As to flying an aircraft of this caliber she would be placed on a permit to fly.

Sorry, but I cannot take any shots from the inside, at least not the coming weeks, as I will be on a trip abroad. The best I can promise you is shots taken through the cockpit windows. Like I said: the management claims shes too dangerous to even walk around, let alone get inside. But I am tall enough to shoot through the cockpit windows, so there’s a good chance I can take some snaps in May.

Interesting to see the pricing of airworthy types and yes they range from USD$79K – $150k depending on the hours and condition.

Not too much, considering the cost of a car in the netherlands these days. Too bad it won’t stop there. You’ve got maintenance, fuel and so on to consider too. Still it would be a nice one to see airborne in the not-so-distant future. If you’re not thinking of carrying fare paying passengers you might even be able to get it licenced in the Netherlands.

I will let everyone know if any response is received from Aviodrome as this aircraft does personally interest me a lot and to have her back in the air would be a wonderful achievement and especially flying in her Netherlands colors.

Cheers
David
Legendary Aircraft Kft

Good luck (although I’m still hoping the Aviodrome will restore her for keeps)

Permit to Fly.

Thank you all for the information in regards to 159. I have contacted Aviodrome to find out if anything can be done and I hopefully will get a response soon. RolandV if there is any chance of additional pictures; especially of the inside this would be fantastic. As to flying an aircraft of this caliber she would be placed on a permit to fly.

Interesting to see the pricing of airworthy types and yes they range from USD$79K – $150k depending on the hours and condition.

I will let everyone know if any response is received from Aviodrome as this aircraft does personally interest me a lot and to have her back in the air would be a wonderful achievement and especially flying in her Netherlands colors.

Cheers
David
Legendary Aircraft Kft

I’ve been looking at the cost of Grumman Trackers over the last 3 weeks, so this thread has been an interesting read!

have a look at this… http://www.aircraftdealer.com/aircraft_for_sale_detail/Grumman_Twin/_GRUMMAN_S2_TRACKER_TORPEDO/11454.htm

Does anyone know if the tracker would be elagable for a C or A, or would it have to fly on a permit?

Regards

A few friends, some buckets with water and carwash could be a good start in the battle against corrosion, after that a few tins paint from a discount shop woold make a finishing touch for the time being. Some bottles of beer makes the party even better.

Best regards,

Mathieu.:)

Suprising what happens when you shake the pot a little, nothing concrete on the subject of restoration of this airframe but enough information to begin the process, good luck to all involved,.

Dear All

I am new to this forum so please bear with me on my first post. I am the MD of Legendary Aircraft Kft in Hungary and we have a full restoration facility where we rebuild and restore Classic / Warbird aircraft. This Tracker is by far a great candidate to rebuild back to airworthy condition subject to an inspection to fully look at the condition of the airframe.

We would certainly look at purchasing the aircraft subject to an inspection and put here back in the air in her original colors.

However if there are any other airframes that people know of in better condition please let me know as the Tracker is by far the next generation of warbids to be recognised and we would like to see one gracing the skys of Europe once again.

Hope to hear from anyone that can help with this aircraft or other similar types. My email is [email]davesaunders@worldonline.co.za[/email]

Cheers
David

David,
I would LOVE to be of service to you, but you would have to contact the Aviodrome, as I am only on the volunteer force. Their website should point you to their contact.

If anyone can help with additional pictures inside and history on 159 this would be a help and current status.

Cheers
David

I would love to take a look (and pics) inside, but we’re strictly prohibited form doing so. I’ll try to find out who “owns” her (crewchief-wise), maybe he can help me.
Her current status is “on display, in need of restauration”.
As for her history:

Replacing the Avenger the RNLN (Royal Netherlands Navy) received 28 S-2As via the USNavy. In addition to those, the MLD (Marine Luchtvaartdienst or Naval Flying Service) received 17 CS-2F-1s through the Canadian Navy, entering service under the designation CS-2A.
VSQ-1 received the CS-2F-1, while VSQ-2, 4 and 5 flew the S-2A Tracker. VSQ-1 was based at Hato (Curaçao) and flew -when she was nearby- from the aircraft carrier Hr.Ms Karel Doorman (a.k.a “Fat Boat”) whilst VSQ 4 was the regular on-board squadron. The other squadrons were based at MVK (NAS) Valkenburg.
After HrMs Karel Doorman got withdrawn from service in 1968, the Trackers only flew from land bases. Between 1968 and 1972 eightteen S-2A’s were converted to S-2N. The other aicraft were delivered to Turkey. In 1972 four S-2N’s were converted into target tugs and redesignated US-2N.

159 made her final flight (and the final flight of the type in Dutch service) on October 1, 1975, with sistership 160. Afterwards she was put on display at the Aviodome museum at Schiphol Airport, Amsterdam. A few years ago the Aviodome moved to EHLE, taking with her 159, and changing the name to “Aviodrome”. Initially she was put on a concrete dispersal, but when the Aviodrome began to take in more large aircraft she was moved into her current location across the taxiway, next to the hangar.

Pictures Inside

If anyone can help with additional pictures inside and history on 159 this would be a help and current status.

Cheers
David

Tracker Parts

My father has always said, any airframe can be kept airworthy, all you need is deep pockets. The following link shows that there is a number of parts still available.

http://www.ruudleeuw.com/abbotsford06.htm

Music to my ears, David – especially the “original colors” bit! 🙂

Restoration.

Dear All

I am new to this forum so please bear with me on my first post. I am the MD of Legendary Aircraft Kft in Hungary and we have a full restoration facility where we rebuild and restore Classic / Warbird aircraft. This Tracker is by far a great candidate to rebuild back to airworthy condition subject to an inspection to fully look at the condition of the airframe.

We would certainly look at purchasing the aircraft subject to an inspection and put here back in the air in her original colors.

However if there are any other airframes that people know of in better condition please let me know as the Tracker is by far the next generation of warbids to be recognised and we would like to see one gracing the skys of Europe once again.

Hope to hear from anyone that can help with this aircraft or other similar types. My email is [email]davesaunders@worldonline.co.za[/email]

Cheers
David

I’m pretty sure they’ve looked after that. They are the premier aviation school in the Netherlands, sponsored by the Dutch MoD, KLM and other major players in Dutch aviation. Actually: there’s one thing that is definately not good: let an aircraft just be. Unless they have the money to keep the airframes to flight status (and almost no museum has those resources), standing idle (ie in museums) is FAR worse than running engines once a year.

There is an argument (that we have used at Brooklands with the Vanguard) that running the engines occasionally helps the other systems and prevents seals and things from drying out but unless the oil is completely changed periodically then running an engine occasionally is NOT better for the engine than having it inhibited properly and kept in a museum. An inhibited engine will last way longer than one that is run, even occasionally.

We have decided against running the Vimy for this reason. I had a long conversation with the guys from Shell who were very helpful and were not trying to sell me anything!

Don’t take my word for it, do some research with the oil companies!

Back on topic: what would be a key issue to scrap a plane, instead of restoring her? Appearantly oxidation is not. But there has to be a moment where restauration is simply not worth the effort. Does it really have to fall apart? Who has ever had to make that decision?

Quite a few people, often based on pure economics. There are several aeroplanes that have been scrapped because the museum could not affod the manpower to keep them and no one wanted them. There are others (Blackpool Vulcan) that were scrapped because they were past it.

If the main structure is sound then there are fewer problems. Once things like spars start delaminating it is going to get expensive, even to static. Skins that are corroded are not so much of a problem.

From what I have seen of the Tracker it looks much better than many other airframes I have seen. It is complete, has all its parts and is tatty but that can be dealt with.

Surface corrosion does not mean it is falling apart, just that it has started. You can arrest this.

But don’t run the engines unless you can afford the oil changes.

Melvyn Hiscock

I’m pretty sure they’ve looked after that. They are the premier aviation school in the Netherlands, sponsored by the Dutch MoD, KLM and other major players in Dutch aviation. Actually: there’s one thing that is definately not good: let an aircraft just be. Unless they have the money to keep the airframes to flight status (and almost no museum has those resources), standing idle (ie in museums) is FAR worse than running engines once a year.

Back on topic: what would be a key issue to scrap a plane, instead of restoring her? Appearantly oxidation is not. But there has to be a moment where restauration is simply not worth the effort. Does it really have to fall apart? Who has ever had to make that decision?

When we moved the B25 at Overloon under cover I was surprised at how little major corrosion there was and that had been outside for more than a quarter of a century. As has been said, get it off the grass build a roof over it. Try getting an oil company to sponsor you with some preservatives. If you have any difficulty then pm me and I could try through the company I work for. It has worked in the past.

That is a good way of getting them to corrode. They are far better if inhibited properly and left. Ground running them does not get them to operating temperature and will not boil off any moisture in the oil, which if it has not been changed will be next to useless. Oil should be changed every 25/50 hours (depending on engine) or four months unless they are inhibited.

Found this out at a great seminar by Shell Aviation. It all comes down to the lead in the fuel turning to acid with the water which low temperatures will not solve. Proper hinhibiting oil sticks to stuff inside and is much better for the engine.

I’m pretty sure they’ve looked after that. They are the premier aviation school in the Netherlands, sponsored by the Dutch MoD, KLM and other major players in Dutch aviation. Actually: there’s one thing that is definately not good: let an aircraft just be. Unless they have the money to keep the airframes to flight status (and almost no museum has those resources), standing idle (ie in museums) is FAR worse than running engines once a year.

Back on topic: what would be a key issue to scrap a plane, instead of restoring her? Appearantly oxidation is not. But there has to be a moment where restauration is simply not worth the effort. Does it really have to fall apart? Who has ever had to make that decision?