Wrecks in Canada

From our museums perspective our collection is based on the following:

The history of…

1) Edmonton…

Not many cities can claim to have sponsored their own racing Spitfire, nor been visited by Wiley Post and Winnie Mae…

(Kermit Weeks’ Winnie-a-like…)

Morning all

Mark

I find it a shame in huge countries such as ours that so little is done to make the young aware of the impact that aviation has had on their lives.

We do our best here and I am sure you do there but in general terms the public and business does little.

But it’s like my father often said…Brute force overcomes bloody ignorance.

Tom H

Cees

You are right there are specific types that still need recovery, unfortunately I do not know the statis of etheir aircraft you mention but I will poke around when I get some time.

From our museums perspective our collection is based on the following:

The history of…

1) Edmonton
2) Alberta and the North
3) Canada

then the rest of the world as it relates to Edmonton.

We consider ourselves a chapter in the book of Canadina Aviation history and do our best to present that chapter.

Our facility is an example…we are housed it what appears to be the last double longdouble wide BCATP hangar. The Province of Alberta has made it a historic site.

Have a good day

Tom H

I wonder what the plans are for the Supermarine Stranrear wreckage that was recovered during the eighties.

And has the Blackburn Shark in the lake been recovered yet?

These types are important for Canadian History escpecially as the last complete Stranraer was exported to the UK and now on display at Hendon.

Cheers

Cees

Thanks Tom

I will definately make an effort to come up and see your museum when I am out there again.
We might not have met then but who knows If we did I would have been working on or in the Lancaster at the time. It is nice to hear you enjoyed your visit, the Nanton group are very friendly and I call it my second home:)

Bit “O” history

Hello again Peter…

Possible, I was in Nanton about 1 year ago, my father in law (ex-RCAF tailgunner on Lancs, Evader, POW) and I took my daughter down to see the Lancaster…she had just turned 14 and it was time. We had both ends of the Lanc covered as my father had been a wartime Lancaster pilot (RCAF attached to RAF). She had heard many Lanc stories and even built models so it was time she saw the real thing.

The curator and a lady and gentleman (you?) treated us like gold and we went for pie after.

The Nanton museum is an absolute treasure and a real tribute to all those that served bomber command.

If you are ever in the area PLEASE visit the Nanton Lancaster..it is well worth the trip. And the folks there know the meaning of world class hospitality.

So Peter if you were one of those I thank you very much. If not, well thanks anyway and I look forward to some great conversations

Tom H

Our biggest problem overhere is apathy and funding. Unlike many coomonwealth countires ours seems to ignore it’s history. Federal Government support is almost non existant west of Ontario and corporate support is a tough nut to crack. We are lucky in Alberta that the province does it’s best.

Tom,

It sounds exactly like the situation here in Australia.

regards

Mark Pilkington

Great site Tom

Hello Tom.
I had a look on your site and it is very well done! I am not sure but you and I might have met in Nanton in the last year or so? I am trying to remember names but There were 2 fellows down from the AAM to see the museum in Nanton and I helped our curator out by being the friendly host in his absence?

Wrecks in Canada

Thanks for the kind repsonses…

Peter
I guess we will agree to disagree on the Lincoln (beauty fo everyone having an opinion), most of those that know better than I declare it a possible parts source. But really glad to hear from you.

The aircraft has a tremendously interesting history being an RAF aircraft under cold weather evaluation, while I don’t have the details handy (I’m at home) I do recall one crew member was lost in the accident.

Of interesting note…a P-39 door was also found in the lake which lead to an extensive search for the rest of the aircraft. Turns out it was in a bunch of stuff that was left on the lake to dissappear when the thaw came…but boy did it generate a bunch of ghost stories.

In spite of oour difference in opinion, nice to meet you and thanks for the welcome.

Mark

Thanks for the welcome and kinds words about Canadian efforts. Our biggest problem overhere is apathy and funding. Unlike many coomonwealth countires ours seems to ignore it’s history. Federal Government support is almost non existant west of Ontario and corporate support is a tough nut to crack. We are lucky in Alberta that the province does it’s best.

Thanks again

Hope you enjoyed the website…always love to get feedback

Tom H

Tom,

Most of the wreck sites mentioned have been throughly investigated, many currently have recovery projects active on them. So don’t be in a hurry to get our airplanes, we need them too.

Its great to know that there has been active survey of most of these wrecks and consideration of what is viable and worthwhile to recover, I think that has been the theme of most of the “wreck-recovery” supporters in this debate.

The thread was started by a New Zealander ponding what existed from the other side of the world, and many of us are intregued by the photos and ghost story’s we hear and see.

Its also great to know that the regional and NGO Museums within Canada are able to take on recoveries of wreck? airframes such as the Ventura and Canso you mention, while they are available, and suitable for recovery/preservation, I think most of us are just hoping “someone” is considering their recovery

Much has been argued on the merit of recovering types already in preservation, and while many PBY’s are already preserved world wide, I can understand your museum’s interest to recover and preserve one with wartime and local relevance into your own museum’s collection, and wish you luck with your recovery, can you provide more details or photos on its condition, history, and situation?

regards

Mark Pilkington

Hello Tom

Welcome to the forum!
I have to disagree with you on the Lincoln. I have photos of her sitting on the shore of the lake and the fuselage section alone would be worth the effort of recovery. There are 2 lancs up north one of which consists of mainly a few smaller parts and a tail section/remains and the other one that is laying on its belly with plenty of structure left.
I know the president of the Ventura group personally and they are doing a great effort on the restoration. A case of see it can be done!

Attached two pics of the lincoln. Apparently there is quite a bit of the plane still in the lake as seen in the one pic that shows the rear fuselage? I looked in the files and info and there is no mention of not posting the pics but if someone emails me saying take them off, they wil go quickly.

Wrecks in Canda

Thanks JDK

Appreciate the kind words and look forward to the visitm, while you are in the area you would also want to visit the Reynolds Alberta Museum (huge collection but you can only see a very well restored small part of it) and the Canadian Aviation Hall of Fame, both in the same location in Wetaskwin Alberta.

Also…the Ventura gang have a wonderful video evaluation of one of the York crash sites. Their president is a full time Hercules pilot and has had the opportunity to visit dozens and dozens of crash sites.

Nice chatting

Tom H

Hi Tom,

Welcome to the forum, and a great opening first post. I’ve not managed to get to your museum, yet, but it’s on the list, and I’ve heard good things about it.

Cheers

Wrecks in Canada..first post

Good afternoon Gentlemen…

Been following this thread for a bit and thought this was a good place to jump in.

I am the Executive Director of the Alberta Aviation Museum in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.

couple things I wanted to bring up in this thread…

1) Canada has a very active Aviation Heritage community that goes literally
coast to coast. While our eastern associates seem to get all the press we
in Western Canada are just as active. The Alberta Aviation Museum is
home to one of the largest collections in Canada!

2) Most of the wreck sites mentioned have been throughly investigated,
many currently have recovery projects active on them. So don’t be in a
hurry to get our airplanes, we need them too.

3) There is a lot of ghost stories and misinformation on aircraft wreck sites in
the North. When we chase the tales down (as we do with all) the results
are usually disappointing.

A good example is the Lincoln mentioned…although ghost stories often
indentify it as a B-24. that particular aircraft operated out of the hangar
that is now our museum (all 84,000 square feet), when it was the post
war location of WE flight. This aircraft (using the term loosely) is not
complete enough to even effect a static restoration. It has been visited
many times throughly investigated. The Lancaster mentioned in Resolute is
another, this aircraft was crashed back in the 50’s/Salvaged for parts and
then bulldozed off the runway. Since then it has been picked to death for
various Lancaster restorations in Canada. The last person I personally
know that saw it described it as bits and chunks of aluminum.

That does not mean you should give up….just real careful. we are in the
process of starting a salvage operation on a ex-RCAF Canso that is
located above the Arctic Circle.

We consider this one close to us…5-6 days hard driving and a days flight
by air (not accessible by ground). Only accessible for salvage 3 months
per year. I am mentioning this to give you an example of the distances
and constraints involved.

4) Someone in this thread recommended putting the effort into existing
restorations. I agree whole heartedly. Again let me give an example…

One of the organizations associated with us is the Ventura Memorial Flight Association. This group has passionately been working on a 1943 RCAF Lockheed Ventura recovered from North of Yellowknife NWTfor the last 15 years. They have not only recovered the aircraft but combed the world to collect the parts, documented the entire history of the Ventura production with an archives so extensive that they have provided info to the US Naval museum and the Imperial War Museum. While they were at it they also have assisted in several recoveries (such as the Pelly Lake Mosquito). You would think that this dedicated group would be overwhelmed with assistance and funds. Not…this project has been rejected at every level of government funding, has recieved minimal corporate support and little private support.

Considering how many were in WW2 service (with all allied nations)and the thousands of persons that crewed on them it is a shame.

But that has not stopped them from continuing to work to put this one back in the air as the only flying Ventura in the world. All the parts are on hand right down to the radios, radar and 1943 survival equipment. This one will fly again, it is only a matter of money.

Thanks for tolerating my little rant, this seems like a great forum for exchanging information and ideas, I look forward to popping in now and again.

Meantime check out our website www.albertaaviationmuseum.com and enjoy, especially the links to other Canadian museums and please check back as our site has just been rebuilt and we have more links and features to add.

thanks again…great forum and wonderful thread

Tom H

Un compromised? She looks nothing like the aircraft that was lifted from the lake! Not to turn the whole discussion over to a different topic but will give you credit that yes ok she is the most original but as far as being un compromised I have to disagree.

What they look like is irrelevant as a historical document. Trenton’s Halifax is all new paint, a lot of new metal and completely refurbished – Elvington’s replica is mostly not Halifax. If a research historian needs to see an original Halifax as from service and RAF use, there’s only once option.

That said, both the Trenton machine and Elvington’s are very, very impressive machines to look at, and Trenton’s shows probably (certainly effectively) what a service Halifax looked like – but that’s not W.W.II paint, or in many cases that particular aircraft’s own parts, or W.W.II wood in it, and so forth. Brilliant, but not truly original.

(And I am familiar at first hand with all three, BTW.)

Cheers!

And why scouring the planet when a substantial Dornier 215 is relatively close by:cool:

Cees

Are you joking:eek: !!! Better not tell the Germans :diablo:

Salu2 , Roger

Cees…..

If I had the cash I for one would be looking to find for some (multiengined)
aircraft.

And a lincoln is not multi engined?

ome on Cees no better excuse to see the trenton hali first hand and while your at it you can spearhead an op to get the lincoln recovered..! 🙂

Why Peter,

I am not interested in a Lincoln:D

If I had the cash I for one would be looking to find for some (multiengined)
aircraft. And why scouring the planet when a substantial Dornier 215 is relatively close by:cool:

Perhaps people or organisations should look closer to home. That would save on time and money. Leave the rest to the wealthy people. The horses-for-courses effect I would like to call this:D

Cheers

Cees

Cees why not come to canada

Come on Cees no better excuse to see the trenton hali first hand and while your at it you can spearhead an op to get the lincoln recovered..! 🙂
Seriously though I would love to see her recovered but I am caught up with too much on the go right now. If I had bags of cash I would certainly go for it for sure!

James:

As a historical record, the RAF Museum’s Halifax is the most important of the breed. Other’s yet unrecovered rate alongside it. We are lucky to have the Trenton machine and the Elvington replica, and they are great – but as historical documents only one is un-compromised.

Un compromised? She looks nothing like the aircraft that was lifted from the lake! Not to turn the whole discussion over to a different topic but will give you credit that yes ok she is the most original but as far as being un compromised I have to disagree.

There is nothing romantic about recovery aircraft. It’s dirty, smelly and hard work recovering a wreck.

I hasten to say that what we are doing in Holland in general is digging up aircraft that came in contact with mother earth reluctantly. But as some of you know we have more substantial wrecks in that big lake in the middle of Holland (Frank Gallion’s P-47, Lancaster, Halifax). As our little country is very flat and densly populated (not everywhere luckily) complete airframes no longer are lurking (give or take the exeption) in remote areas. The only possibility is again in our fresh water lake or the Waddenzee (which is salt water). In Britain there are a lot of high ground wrecks still extant where usable components are still present.

The difference is the people interested in them and what they are doing with them. The Boston example is a bad story but the recovery of a lot of Whitley material by Elliot Smock and his gang is the opposite luckily.

There are also thinkers and doers (of which I think I belong in the latter category). Not pointing the finger at you Peter, but if you say that you would love to see the Lincoln recovered, what keeps you? If we have to wait until someone else steps in it could be too late (don’t worry we know you are very involved with Lancater restoration, something that is very important as well).

I disagree about the historical importance of the Lancaster. Why, because it is the most wellknown type used by Bomber Command? That would be an insult to all those that flew in the many other types. Diversity is better than having museums with the same types in their collections everywhere.

Most of the recoveries in the past two decades are the result of private initiative. Large organisation are usually very slow to act or waste a lot of time discussing things instead of taking action.

This is also a matter of taste

My opinion only of course;)

Cheers

Cees

Good points JDK, I recall that several recovered wreck parts stored at Raf bases were later sent to scrap yards because the wreckage was regarded as scrap by uninformed RAf people who just wanted a tidy place. Eg RAF Henlow sent parts from Mickle Fell Stirling, Larkhill Tomahawk,Battle and internal fittings from Lanc S sugar to a scrapyard at Baldock.

There is an element of collectors fever in wreck recovery, a sort of pressure that if you dont act on a new find then someone one else will grab it. This I think is what has caused the rush and damage to many recoveries where locals have grabbed wrecks because of the potential value. Sadly that will not change even if the recovery is not officially cleared.

This is a very good point,but it is not just the RAF who have scrapped/destroyed parts from crash sites,many recovery groups have done exactly the same. Two which spring to mind in Wales are the F-5E Lightning near Aberystwyth and the Douglas Boston in Snowdonia. The “Wartime Aircraft Recovery Group” from Shropshire removed a complete outer wing,tailplane,main U/C leg and other parts from the Lightning in 1979 only to sell them later for scrap,and the “Boston Havoc Preservation Trust” had the parts from the Boston,they scrapped one outer wing(even got £150 for it!) and who knows where the rest has gone.

Unless a proper museum is involved with a good conservation plan I feel it is better to leave things where they are.

Garry.