WW1 Aircraft Oil/Fuel Tank – Surprise Find

Oh yes, sorry, now thats a whole other can of worms with who shot it down 🙂

I appraised an Aviation Auction collection back around 1990
There was a piece of fabric from the MVR Triplane with the cross intact
It came with documents to authenticate it etc
I wish I could remember who it was sold to .
It was a great piece

The Canadian Military Institute has the seat of Baron von Richthofen’s Fokker triplane, donated by Captain A. Roy Brown, a Canadian ace of the First World War, who credited with downing the famous German aviator. Also , a large piece of the wing structure and a piece of fabric with the german cross insignia

Sorry …to clarify I was referring to the quote above …Alegedly

Regarding relics
I fully agree that there are MVR relics out there and there are also enough spurious parts to build his aircraft 3 times over

Oh yes, sorry, now thats a whole other can of worms with who shot it down 🙂

c) by the troops that shot it down.

Sorry …to clarify I was referring to the quote above …Alegedly

Regarding relics
I fully agree that there are MVR relics out there and there are also enough spurious parts to build his aircraft 3 times over

Thanks chaps. However – I’m not commenting on the specific RSL, but I would point out it’s important to note that national level collections operate to a different standard (and potential public check) of these kind of relics; there’s a lot of Dr.1 stuff on show which has a verbal or unprovable history behind it. That’s not critical for the Museum’s case Euan’s posted about, and could quickly become a wild goose chase, and worse, potentially mislead the public as to the rigor with which the Museum needs to approach the background of their item.

The Royal Canadian Military Institute has a very public provenance for the seat; the AWM, IWM & RAAFM all have standards to adhere to, and the Omaka Heritage Collection had the provenance of the cross on show with it.

Like airworthy restorations, paperwork is key here.

Regards,

Hi James
I am pretty sure that over 10 years ago I visited the Blackburn RSL and they had a small piece of the triplane as well.
Paul

Hey Paul

I’ll go and check that on the weekend, that’s only a suburb away 🙂

There is a lot of dubious Dr.1 material out there, nearly as much as generic AirMin stuff sold on e-Bay as ‘Spitfire’. However, I posted in the Aerodrome thread, off the top of my head items I’m aware of in major public collections, most of which is authenticated to a reasonable degree (these collections have every reason not to overstate the provenance they can prove for these items, rather than the other way around).

There is no argument that the Dr.1 was heavily ‘souvenired’ primarily by Diggers of the Australian Army, nor that much of that material ended up in Australia (and elsewhere) after the war. The problem is, in most cases that there’s no reliable evidence (provenance) to back up the claim that the items come from a particular aircraft, or is indeed genuine.

From my memory, and please feel free to add to, they are;
IWM (Engine. & more?)
AWM (control stick & yoke, cockpit parts, MvR boot. Other items?)
RAAF museum (Small pieces inc fabric patches, metal parts, gun flash suppressor, others?)
Omaka Heritage Centre, NZ, a good deal of items including a complete (wing?) cross.
Royal Canadian Military Institute (seat – only?)

As far as I know, the two last complete Dr.1 triplanes were destroyed by allied bombing. Other Fokkers (E.I, D.VIII) are rare, with one and one fuse. only surviving alone, respectively, so I’m wondering how many Dr.1 bits of any aircraft survives; i.e. even if this proves to be Dr.1 but without a tie to MvR’s machine, it’s still rare and of historical & research import.

What would be interesting is if any collection had a tank with provenance to that Dr.1, thus eliminating the possibility. Finding a document tying this object to that aircraft would be ‘very nice’ and massively unlikely though.

Regards,

Hi James
I am pretty sure that over 10 years ago I visited the Blackburn RSL and they had a small piece of the triplane as well.
Paul

There is a lot of dubious Dr.1 material out there, nearly as much as generic AirMin stuff sold on e-Bay as ‘Spitfire’. However, I posted in the Aerodrome thread, off the top of my head items I’m aware of in major public collections, most of which is authenticated to a reasonable degree (these collections have every reason not to overstate the provenance they can prove for these items, rather than the other way around).

There is no argument that the Dr.1 was heavily ‘souvenired’ by Diggers of the Australian Army, nor that much of that material ended up in Australia (and elsewhere) after the way. The problem is, in most cases that there’s no reliable evidence (provenance) to back up the claim that the items come from a particular aircraft.

From my memory, and please feel free to add to, they are;
IWM (Engine. & more?)
AWM (control stick & yoke, cockpit parts, MvR boot. Other items?)
RAAF museum (Small pieces inc fabric patches, metal parts, gun flash suppressor, others?)
Omaka Heritage Centre, NZ, a good deal of items including a complete (wing?) cross.
Royal Canadian Military Institute (seat – only?)

As far as I know, the two last complete Dr.1 triplanes were destroyed by allied bombing. Other Fokkers (E.I, D.VIII) are rare, with one and one fuse. only surviving alone, respectively, so I’m wondering how many Dr.1 bits of any aircraft survives; i.e. even if this proves to be Dr.1 but without a tie to MvR’s machine, it’s still rare and of historical & research import.

What would be interesting is if any collection had a tank with provenance to that Dr.1, thus eliminating the possibility. Finding a document tying this object to that aircraft would be ‘very nice’ and massively unlikely though.

Regards,

Great stuff James, this has already caused me serious lack of sleep over the last two days, thinking thinking and trying to match all points up.

I agree with what you have said, and a casual search on the web indicates your info is correct. I have also had email correspondence with a WW1 aero expert who left the “scene” a couple of years back and he has been extremely helpful and for that myself and the museum are very grateful. The fact that it has ended up here in Australia is a mystery alone as there were no DR-1 aircraft here and although there have been allusions to one, possibly two DVIII in Australia decades ago, there is no concrete evidence of this, photos have been alleged to be around but yet to see them, and no records in the Archives.

At the end of it all, we have something unique, and something that we will look after as a Museum, with a new Board of Management, and hopefully be able to solve an interesting challenge along the way 🙂

To me this is more fascinating than buried spitfires…

Well for starters its sitting next to me as I type 🙂

I’ve taken nearly 300 shots of it over the last three days. It must be said that the odds are stacked against us in terms of finding ID’s etc. I hope I can find the donation form but given it was in the 1980’s when it arrived at the museum it’s probably been junked at some point 🙁

But we will do whatever we can to at the very least ensure that we can get as much relevant info on this tank as we can. It’s not something any of us take lightly given the DR1 flown by Richtofen was subject to fake fabric being sold by a dealer some time ago so naturally there is going to be skepticism. What makes this unit interesting is that it has clearly been hacksawed off the frame, shows some interesting crumple / impact points among others. Does this solve the mystery? Absolutely not, and as we have progressed it has only served to pose more questions, each of which must be addressed according to evidence.

At any rate, we have a rare bit of kit, and for that alone we are grateful !

There is a lot of dubious Dr.1 material out there, nearly as much as generic AirMin stuff sold on e-Bay as ‘Spitfire’. However, I posted in the Aerodrome thread, off the top of my head items I’m aware of in major public collections, most of which is authenticated to a reasonable degree (these collections have every reason not to overstate the provenance they can prove for these items, rather than the other way around).

There is no argument that the Dr.1 was heavily ‘souvenired’ primarily by Diggers of the Australian Army, nor that much of that material ended up in Australia (and elsewhere) after the war. The problem is, in most cases that there’s no reliable evidence (provenance) to back up the claim that the items come from a particular aircraft, or is indeed genuine.

From my memory, and please feel free to add to, they are;
IWM (Engine. & more?)
AWM (control stick & yoke, cockpit parts, MvR boot. Other items?)
RAAF museum (Small pieces inc fabric patches, metal parts, gun flash suppressor, others?)
Omaka Heritage Centre, NZ, a good deal of items including a complete (wing?) cross.
Royal Canadian Military Institute (seat – only?)

As far as I know, the two last complete Dr.1 triplanes were destroyed by allied bombing. Other Fokkers (E.I, D.VIII) are rare, with one and one fuse. only surviving alone, respectively, so I’m wondering how many Dr.1 bits of any aircraft survives; i.e. even if this proves to be Dr.1 but without a tie to MvR’s machine, it’s still rare and of historical & research import.

What would be interesting is if any collection had a tank with provenance to that Dr.1, thus eliminating the possibility. Finding a document tying this object to that aircraft would be ‘very nice’ and massively unlikely though.

Regards,

To me this is more fascinating than buried spitfires….Have my fingers crossed to find ID on it to the airframe.Even then finding something from that period in such a good condition is a treasure…

[QUOTE=Fleet16b;2129509]

c) Tank is made from copper

There were remnants of a very well known DR-1 bought back as souvenirs by the troops that shot it down. Cheers

QUOTE]

Alegedly

So Canada, NZ and Australia are displaying potential fakes is what you are implying here ?
I’m no expert, but pretty sure the major museums will have done their homework….

[QUOTE=Bellarine;2129488]c) Tank is made from copper

There were remnants of a very well known DR-1 bought back as souvenirs by the troops that shot it down. Cheers

QUOTE]

Alegedly

That is indeed a lucky survival. Its positive identification is eagerly awaited.