WW2 Lanc rear turret gunner war diary

I asked a friend of mine, Dennis Over, who was a rear gunner in 227 squadron for his opinion about the phrase “the sting”, this is his reply:

I have not come across the description “Sting”. His description of the situation begs a couple of questions.
If he had his head held down protected by his hands & was in the standard FN rear turret then his head would have been almost touching his control column grips. His reference to the term sting may have been part of the frequently used term, “sting in the tail”, the sting being the triggers on the control column.

I am assuming that he had his turret in the normal landing or emergency position on the port beam. bracing himself against the side of the turret under which circumstances his head would have been very near the rear of the stbd. Brownings.

Max

Just a thought: I wonder if on this occasion he was flying in the mid-upper turret? That would account for the gunsight and the sling (being his seat).

Bomber Crash at Croydon Airport

I too think it would be good to hear again from the original poster, especially after reading the fascinatingly detailed excerpt that he posted; what were the ‘obvious reasons’ that persuaded the crew not to bale out and had in fact, as the crash witness stated, Lancaster ND582 been ‘badly shot-up’? If it had the Rear-Gunner must surely have recorded that experience in great detail too.

I wonder if any of the current residents of Lavender Vale, Wallington SM6 9QR are aware of the tragedy that unfolded in their street on the night of 21st April 1944 or if they ever uncover strangely twisted bits of aluminium in their gardens? The internet is a powerful thing so maybe years from now one of them will stumble across this thread and suddenly find a connection with a history that is fast leaving any living memory.

On the balance of probabilities, my money is on “sling”, as suggested originally by Creaking Door.

I’ve got the APs for most of the Lancaster’s turrets plus numerous other types of turret and I cannot recall ever seeing a reference to “sting” in any of them.

Neither does “sting” crop up in any published biography by an Air Gunner that I’ve read.

That said, I cannot recall any reference, official or otherwise, to the use of the word sling but I can accept that it might have been used to refer to the sight radius arm, i.e. “the sight sling”.

From reading the Gunner’s account again, the idea of him somehow grasping the control column and the sight, then placing his head in both hands to avoid smashing his face “into it”, i.e. the gun sight, is not very practicable. Whereas, covering the sight with both hands, bracing his arms against the radius arms then resting his head against his hands does sound as though it might provide some measure of protection.

It must have worked, whatever he did, or we wouldn’t be reading his memoirs!

I must say, though, that while this sort of post is always entertaining and I enjoy the challenge of trying to solve them, I’m disappointed that the OP has given us so little background information about the Gunner or the events covered in his diary. It has been left to another forum member (well done, Creaking Door) to fill in the human details.

Will we hear from Michael Allman again and what will he do with the diary once it is proof read to his satisfaction? Will any of us get an opportunity to read the rest of it? There’s a long running thread on the Military forum over at PPRuNe that chronicles the experiences of WW2 aircrew. It’s running a bit short of contributions at present and I’m sure this chap’s diary would be warmly welcomed over there. (And no doubt here too, of course!)

Stringer?

Could it be “Stringer?” Is he perhaps slightly misusing the term to mean the bracing bars each side of him, rising from the turret floor?

Stinger in “engineer speak”

In engineering terms, a stinger is a component connecting between larger/main components. For example, in crane lifts, a stinger is a connecting sling line between the crane hook, and the connection point between multiple sling wires. In the case of the turret connection, the stinger may refer to the cross-bar between gun housings used to mount the gunsight.

…geoff

Answering my own questions here I’ve had another look at the CWGC entry and Sergeant Peter Bigg was a Flight-Engineer with Bomber Command, and with the same 57 Squadron.

The CWGC site have Sgt. Peter Bigg, 577845, as having died on 21st April 1943…

Thanks, that would explain it.

Just out of curiosity I looked for Sergeant Peter Bigg in Bomber Command Losses for 21st April 1943 but I couldn’t find him. He is on the Royal Air Force Halton Apprentices Association website roll-of-honour (so would that make him a Flight-Engineer) and is buried in Ruislip, North-West London. Presumably he was killed in an accident or on operations with another command?

Can any one advise me on the wording
” I grabbed the sting and gun sight “
I am sure the word STING is incorrect can anyone help as I cant read this man’s writing.

Am currently reading ‘Flights of Passage’ by Samuel Hynes (a Marine pilot flying TBM Avengers in the Pacific).

Just read this bit which reminded me of your post…

‘…At the back end of the tunnel, under the tail, a thirty calibre gun, the stinger, was mounted…’.

Might just be slang for a defensive position as mooted in other posts…

Cheers

Seb

Sting? Stick? Could he be saying that he first grabbed the gunsight and stick to brace himself…

Andy beat me to it! All of the previous suggestions are completely feasible, except I’ve never read or heard of anything in a gun turret referred to as a ‘sting’. Maybe this was a piece of slang particular to this squadron or even his gunnery instructor?

If I might quote from “They Hosed Them Out” by John Beede, referring to his first op in a Wellington rear turret:

“I tried the control stick and swung the guns in an arc to check they were working…”

Interesting puzzle!

“I grabbed the ***** and gunsight with both hands and put my head in my hands, this is to avoid smashing my face into it as it is only inches away…”

To me the diarist has got to be talking about something very close to the gun-sight; close enough that he can get hold of it and the gun-sight with his hands and still put his ‘head in his hands’. Something ‘only inches away’ (from his face)?

I’d imagine it was just slang for the whole gun system ‘The sting in the tail’……

The CWGC site have Sgt. Peter Bigg, 577845, as having died on 21st April 1943:-

http://www.cwgc.org/search/SearchResults.aspx?surname=bigg&initials=p&war=2&yearfrom=1900&yearto=2000&force=Air&nationality=&send.x=34&send.y=8

Someone must have their wires crossed.

While searching for information about Lancaster ND582 I came across a strange entry from the Royal Air Force Halton Apprentices Association website roll-of-honour; it is for Sergeant Peter Bigg aged 19 who is listed as being killed on the 21st April 1944 as the Flight Engineer in the crash of ND582.

Bomber Command Losses 1944 lists Sergeant W.Clarke as being the Flight-Engineer in the crash of ND582 on the same day and this ties in with the Rear-Gunner diarist quoted in this thread as saying that his crewmate ‘Nobby’ was killed in that same crash.

http://www.oldhaltonians.co.uk/pages/rememb/ROH/41.htm

There is an interesting first-hand account from the RAFCommands forum:

“My father was an Air Ministry policeman at Croydon Airport during WW2 and very late one night – about 1942/3 we were all woken from sleep in our Anderson shelter and taken to the next street to the still burning wreck of two houses in Lavender Vale Wallington just beyond the airport boundary.

My father told us that it was a badly shot up Lancaster returning from a raid trying to land at Croydon – which was never intended for ‘heavies’ but overshot with tragic results.”

It seems also there were three civilian casualties caused by the crash, a Firewatcher, Henry Alfred Hayes aged 50, Eva West aged 63 (at 55 Lavender Vale) and Haidee Marie Irene Marsden-Smith aged 35 (at 57 Lavender Vale).

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?7925-Lancaster-crash-Croydon

Sting?

Stick?

Could he be saying that he first grabbed the gunsight and stick to brace himself…then changed and put his head in both hands to avoid hitting his face? Unless he had four hands he obviously cannot have held two things and at the same time put his face in his hands.

Yes, Mike you are correct it is KB944 at CASM in Ottawa.

Mark

Tail gun positions have occasionally been referred to as a tail “stinger”. Could it be the control handles that he is referring to as “the sting”?

I would assume that the sting would refer to the turret control handle. I have attached a couple of shots of a Lanc rear turret to show it.
Having recently had the opportunity to squeeze myself into a fully equipped Lanc rear turret , I can confirm that you can either grab the gun sight or the turret control to steady yourself.

MRP

That turret looks familiar…..KB944 at the Canada Aviation & Space Museum?

I would assume that the sting would refer to the turret control handle. I have attached a couple of shots of a Lanc rear turret to show it.
Having recently had the opportunity to squeeze myself into a fully equipped Lanc rear turret , I can confirm that you can either grab the gun sight or the turret control to steady yourself.

MRP