WW2 Lancaster Loss – Any Help appreciated

John, this post (#6) may be of interest http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?120686-Another-Lancaster-crew-remembered-Lest-we-Forget&p=2026545#post2026545

Did not know that, thank you for much for that information Zorglub. I will continue to try and find out any further info about my Dad, as he never spoke of his wartime experiences

J Murray is not your man. You are talking about my Father, John Dickson Murrie. Sgt Flight Engineer. Sole survivor and escapee of his Lancaster, hit byflak, and part of an 80 aircraft raid over France June 1944

I am his son John. You are correct in that he was the sole survivor. My father was a Flight Engineer with 9 Sqn. John D Murrie, he was assisted by the French Resistance and eventually made it home, although his Family had presumed he had died along with the rest of the Crew. He Married, had 2 sons and passed away in 1989. He is buried in his home town of Kirkintilloch. MURRIE JD Sgt 1823503. I have only just started research on my Father, and also would be grateful for any Information, as he never spoke of his Wartime experiences.

… and I can add he was hidden at the Freteval forest until liberation in August 1944 . He’ s listed here :

http://armrel.pagesperso-orange.fr/thematiques/freteval1.html

Zorglub

I am his son John. You are correct in that he was the sole survivor. My father was a Flight Engineer with 9 Sqn. John D Murrie, he was assisted by the French Resistance and eventually made it home, although his Family had presumed he had died along with the rest of the Crew. He Married, had 2 sons and passed away in 1989. He is buried in his home town of Kirkintilloch. MURRIE JD Sgt 1823503. I have only just started research on my Father, and also would be grateful for any Information, as he never spoke of his Wartime experiences.

Hello ,

It seems we have a false entry in Chorley’s Vol.5 . Lancaster JA957 lost 7/8 July 1944 , only Sgt J.D. Massie ( sic ) evader , flight engineer , survived . Plane crashed at Ecquevilly ( west Paris ) where the rest of the crew is buried at the local cemetery ( two RAF , four RCAF ) .
If so , no escape report available under that name at TNA .

Have a link here with pictures of graves :

http://francecrashes39-45.net/page_fiche_av.php?id=1125

Hope this help .

Zorglub

Welcome John,

Have you been in touch with the IX(B) Squadron Association? They have an excellent archive resource and are extremely passionate about helping veterans from the Squadron.

Last Sunday I attended a memorial dedication at which a 94 year old rear gunner from the Squadron was brought to the service by the Association Secretary – if you send me your email address via Private Message I will provide you with some contact details.

I am his son John. You are correct in that he was the sole survivor. My father was a Flight Engineer with 9 Sqn. John D Murrie, he was assisted by the French Resistance and eventually made it home, although his Family had presumed he had died along with the rest of the Crew. He Married, had 2 sons and passed away in 1989. He is buried in his home town of Kirkintilloch. MURRIE JD Sgt 1823503. I have only just started research on my Father, and also would be grateful for any Information, as he never spoke of his Wartime experiences.

The Crew of Lancaster LM163

The crew aboard LM163 was as follows: Pilot – F/O A.Jobson (Jobby), Navigator – F/O A.G.Reed (Prof), Bomb Aimer – Sgt I.Galloway (Jock), Flight Engineer – Sgt H.Jones (Jonah), Wireless Operator – Sgt J.Cottam (Jimmy), Mid-Upper Gunner – Sgt J.Murray (Little Geordie) and Rear Gunner – Sgt J.Madden (Big Geordie). To the best of my knowledge, none was Canadian. As stated in other mails above, Murray survived the operation and became a POW at Luckenwalde.

Ian – thanks for that, you’ve been an absolute star with all your efforts.

I’ll pass all your comments on and will let you know what happens.

Following one of the earlier posts, I’ve suggested contacting the RAF’s records centre to get J Murrie’s service record which will confirm whether J Murray is our man.

I’ve crossed referenced BCWD to BCL 1944, just looking at raids against Flying Bomb sites or storage facilities, or any mention of V2 raids. These took place between 16 June and 28 August 1944. The V1 launch sites in the Pas de Calais area were overrun and captured by Allied forces a few days later. Apart from the chap already mentioned I could only find one other Murray (Murrie), an E G Murray killed on 25 August 1944.

Until anyone else proves differently or further information is forthcoming, my money is on Sgt J Murray of 3rd August 1944, being our chap.

I’d favour V1 also, though there is the famous V2 bunker just outside St Omer, which is, indeed, North of Paris. Moggy

As far as I can ascertain the last Bomber Command operation to the St Omer area (Listed in BCWD) was on 30/31 August 1943, to bomb a supply dump in the Forêt d’Eperlecques area, just North of St Omer. 2 Wellingtons were lost on this sortie.

Well done on the efforts so far Ian. I agree that much of the info supplied may not have stood the test of time. Have experienced this myself many times in the past, however, generally there is something that clicks in and makes sense or looks right. I’m not seeing it here to be honest. Hopefully there will be some feedback one way or another if the POW line of enquiry is followed up. It’s a great pity we don’t have a squadron number or even where they took off from as these details would help enormously.

As usual, it is far, far, harder to glean info about an airman who survived the war than one who did not!

Keep up the good work.

Nothing fits the bill from Chorleys OTU and HCU losses 1940 – 47.

Hmm, the 625 Sqdn loss on 3rd August doesn’t seem to tie in too well with the other tid bits supplied by Andrew O.

Another thought…..since Murrie/Murray jumped he should be a member of the Caterpiller Club. Do they keep records of all who were awarded the pin badge and circumstances of when their life was saved by a parachute?

They do to the greater extent, the difference from the details that Andrew O posted here and emailed to me at work is that, Murrie is thought to be the only survivor from the crew, who were supposed to be all Canadian. However these details may not have stood the test of time, and may have been mixed up by 2nd, 3rd even 4th hand accounts.

Several months ago I was approached by a friend of mine who asked if I could look into a relative of his who was a Spitfire pilot, lost in action over Holland. When I delved into the details, it transpired that this relative was not on Spitfires, in fact he was a mid upper gunner on Lancasters, the family had embellished his service record which had written in family folk law over the years. It was sad to tell them he wasn’t what they thought he was, but for the purpose of the family tree it was proper to get the facts right.

I’m not saying that this is what has happened here, but it is possible that facts have got mixed up over the past 60 years, and so far J Murray and 3rd August 1944 V1 raids is the closest we can find to the person Andrew O is looking for, and it has given him a lead to follow with this Murrays POW number. It’s worth persuing to the end even if in the end it proves negative.

The Bomber command attacks of August 3 1944 were all aimed at V1 storage sites at Bois de Cassan, Forêt de Nieppe and Trossy-St-Maxim, in total 1,114 aircraft took part, 601 Lancasters, 492 Halifaxes 21 Mosquitoes, 6 Lancasters were lost, 5 from the Trossy raid and 1 from the Bois de Cassan raid.

Were there any known V2 sites near Paris in the summer of 1944? On 6th September 1944 Batterie 444, St. Vith, 18 km southeast of Malmedy (Belgium), had two misfires for V2s both aimed at Paris (http://www.v2rocket.com/start/deployment/timeline.html) suggesting it was no longer in Axis hands – seems the date or the target could be mistaken, easily done after 60 years.

Flood

Thanks for the clarification Ian, sorry I missed those snippets from your earlier postings.

Hmm, the 625 Sqdn loss on 3rd August doesn’t seem to tie in too well with the other tid bits supplied by Andrew O.

Another thought…..since Murrie/Murray jumped he should be a member of the Caterpiller Club. Do they keep records of all who were awarded the pin badge and circumstances of when their life was saved by a parachute?

Has anyone checked the Escape/Evasion lists to see if there is a Murrie/Murray listed for 1944 since he may not be showing as a POW?

On my rather extensive trawl through Chorleys BCL 1944, I didn’t come across anyone by the name Murrie who was a POW, Injured or Evaded.

Murray from 625 Sqn on 3 August 1944 was taken POW.

The other J Murray may have evaded but as he was crew on a Halifax detailed on a Gardening sortie to Holland I dismissed this one as not fitting the form.

Has anyone checked the Escape/Evasion lists to see if there is a Murrie/Murray listed for 1944 since he may not be showing as a POW?

Since Murrie/Murray was the only RAF bod onboard I would hazzard a guess that he was the Flight Engineer perhaps?

Another thought…… were any of the OTU’s or HCU’s involved in ops at this time? Could we be looking for an OTU/HCU crew?

Sorry only to be providing more questions rather than answers.

Perhaps extending the Chorley trawl to March and April 1944 might just bear fruit, although EN830 has already put in a great amount of searching on this

I trawled from January through to beginning of October, there is another F/O J Murray, who survived the shooting down of his Halifax during a Gardening sortie to Holland in early 1944.

I did not come across anyone by the name Murrie listed as POW, INJ or EVD.

I’d favour V1 also, though there is the famous V2 bunker just outside St Omer, which is, indeed, North of Paris.

I’m not happy though that the Eiffel Tower could be used as a nav point from such a distance.

Moggy