WW2 night formation flying

Unfortunate there’s a metman around – we get blamed for an awful lot. Tide and moon data are and were common knowledge and the Met Office wouldn’t have been consulted.

As an aside, moon and tide considerations determined that Operation BITING, the raid on Bruneval in 1942, could only take place between 23 and 26 February. Unfortunately the weather didn’t play ball but during the early hours of the 27th, after BITING was technically called off, the forecasters advised that weatherwise the coming night (27/28th) would be ideal. In the event the raid was completed successfully outside the optimum period.

But I digress away from the original subject of the thread …. .

Brian

I’m sorry Creaking Door, but that statement ‘According to the British Meteorological Office “D-day should be within one day before, to four days after a full moon” is a load of total rubbish. Do you really believe that the Met Office would have any say in one of the greatest military operations in history?

No. I wasn’t actually suggesting that the Met Office was dictating to the military planners; I was merely attempting (badly it seems) to quote the source of that statement which obviously originated from the needs of the military operation.

I’m sorry Creaking Door, but that statement ‘According to the British Meteorological Office “D-day should be within one day before, to four days after a full moon” is a load of total rubbish. Do you really believe that the Met Office would have any say in one of the greatest military operations in history?

The parameters for the invasion were decided by the military planners taking into consideration the varying needs of the Army, Royal Navy and RAF. Military considerations meant that the operation could only be undertaken in summer during a period of new or full moon, and a low tide at dawn (to facilitate the safe landing of troops). Militarily the ideal conditions were a sequence of four quiet fine days, small amounts of cloud below 8000 ft, visibility of 3+ miles and an on-shore wind not exceeding force 3 (8-12 mph). Of the three summer months, May, June and July, the greatest probability of those conditions occurring was found to be in June. On that basis, coupled with the moon phase, was 5 June chosen as D-day.

In the event had the military been prepared May would have been the better option but, as it wasn’t, D-day had to be in June. As it happened early June 1944 was one of the stormiest on record. For practical reasons the final go/no-go decision had to be made two days before the preferred date for the invasion; on the evening of 3 June the forecast for the 5th was of stormy conditions, way outside the limits required, and the landing was postponed. It wasn’t until the following evening, 4th June, that the forecasters offered a brief window of opportunity in the forecast for 6th June; Eisenhower courageously took that opportunity – and the rest is history.

For the record on the next preferred date for a landing, in terms of moon phase, 18 June, the weather conditions were worse than at the beginning of the month.

Source (amongst others) “Forecast for Overlord; June 6 1944” by J M Stagg. (pub: Ian Allan)

Although Deryck says the night of 5/6 June was not a moonlit night, there was a full moon that night, moonrise being at 1834 GMT on 5th and moonset at 0404 GMT on 6th – the unfortunate thing is that it was at times obscured by cloud. The importance of the moon was not so much as the light it provided for an airborne landing, but the influence it had on the tide.

Brian

No moonlight that I can remember as we could not see any aircraft nor any formation lights. Certainly the night of June 5/6 1944 was not a moonlit night…

According to the British Meteorological Office “D-Day should be within one day before, to four days after a full moon” and in the book Band of Brothers by Stephen Ambrose it is stated that when the C-47 aircraft carrying the 101st Airborne Division “reached 1000 feet, they began to circle, getting into a V of Vs formation” and that that formation was intended to be maintained over the drop-zone but that it was dispersed by cloud over the continent.

There was also a large exercise on May 11th 1944 in which the whole 101st Airborne Division was dropped after dark over England after a two-and-a-half hour flight to simulate to duration of the actual mission. There would also have been moonlight on this night.

There were no navigation lights visible from the ground so I assume that they had ‘station keeping’ lights.

Correct, according to this first hand account, transport C-47 aircraft used on D-Day did carry formation keeping lights.

http://www.amcmuseum.org/history/wwii/troop_carrier_d-day_3.html

Of course this doesn’t apply to Bomber Command operations which, later in the war at least, avoided moonlit nights like the plague!

I can remember reading an account by the mid-upper gunner of a Lancaster that spotted, and flew in formation with, another Lancaster during the disastrous Nuremberg bombing raid that was carried out in moonlight on March 1944.

Neither Lancaster would have had any formation-keeping lights and the gunner found it ‘very comforting’ to be in formation but unfortunately a German night-fighter was able to locate them (initially with radar) and shot them both down with two quick ‘Schräge Musik’ attacks. The fighter was not seen by either crew and tragically the gunner was the only survivor.

It was the only way to get the first wave of the Airborne troops in a tight enough grouping on the ground.

Except that the plan became a shambles and paratroops ended up scattered miles from their intended drop-zones…

…but the end results were not as bad as could have been expected as the scattered paratroops appeared as a much larger force to the German defenders and so many objectives were apparently being targeted that the real objectives were masked for much longer than expected.

Night formations

No moonlight that I can remember as we could not see any aircraft nor any formation lights. Certainly the night of June 5/6 1944 was not a moonlit night and not only did they fly in the ‘stream’ formation to carry out their ‘O dark hundred’ drops, some were towing gliders!

Surely there must be a few pilots or C-47 aircrew from that era still around who could give us the details on how it was done.

Sandy Barr of the www.644squadron.com web site used to tow gliders with his Halifax, in his book he indicates that he towed a glider on the D-Day attack, but he does not give his takeoff time other than to say it was early morning.

Would these C-47 formations have been training on moonlit nights?

Wrong!

Sorry to disapoint you, but they were flying in formation. (I too was in the RAF, I know how the RAF ‘bomber streaming’ and the 8th AF Combat boxes worked.) I also discussed it with Wingco Jefferson at the time.

They were in a V formation of three and the next three were in behind them slightly different altitude to avoid the propwash, etc. etc. in a trail type formation of 20+ groups of three, exactly as you have no doubt seen in daylight shots in the movies. It was the only way to get the first wave of the Airborne troops in a tight enough grouping on the ground.

I remember that on the build-up to D-Day that, every night, huge formations, allegedly 60+, of C-47s flew over our village practicing for the the D-Day airborne landings

I trust this doesn’t seem too picky, but it is important to understand that large numbers of aircraft flying overhead does not necessarily mean they are in formation. The RAF, god bless them, would send a thousand bombers nightly on missions. They were not in formation, but in trail. The 60+ C47s over your village may have been timed out, but they were definitely not flying formation.

C-47 nightime formations.

True, the bombers did not fly in any formation at night, but I remember that on the build-up to D-Day that, every night, huge formations, allegedly 60+, of C-47s flew over our village practicing for the the D-Day airborne landings. There were no navigation lights visible from the ground so I assume that they had ‘station keeping’ lights.

Why over our village in Bedfordshire? They were led by a local resident, Wing Commander Jefferson. No collisions occurred anywhere in our area.

Just a small addition – going through my Father’s logbook I see he did 18 hours of formation flying in SNV1s at Pensacola 1/42 and that was all the formation flying training that he did. Not really enough to prepare you for night formation flying over Essen on Oct 23 in Lancaster PD279!

Thank You

Just as a matter of interest, over a blacked-out country as in WW2, I’ve often wondered how well a crew could see once their vision had become accustomed to the dark? Most of us will never have experienced anything like blackout. If there’s no light pollution to prevent the eyes fully “tuning in”, from roughly how far away would a crewman be expected to see another aircraft?

I’d be interested in hearing what it was like over a blacked-out Europe, but those on the forum that fly over the vastness of Canada or Australia may be able to offer a view too?

Interestingly..in his second autobio ‘KG200’ Peter Stahl was dropping ‘agents’ into allied territory right up to the end of the war,his crew were so used to flying blackout missions …they realised that they were on the losing side when they saw that the encroaching allied forces started using headlights etc again and not bothering to conceal at night.

cheers baz

Just as a matter of interest, over a blacked-out country as in WW2, I’ve often wondered how well a crew could see once their vision had become accustomed to the dark? Most of us will never have experienced anything like blackout. If there’s no light pollution to prevent the eyes fully “tuning in”, from roughly how far away would a crewman be expected to see another aircraft?

Perhaps that could be a factor in how the bomber stream remained in fairly close proximity? When you see some of the pictures where the bombers are illuminated from below, they do seem to be fairly close and regimented, despite the obvious difficulties in night formation keeping.

I’d be interested in hearing what it was like over a blacked-out Europe, but those on the forum that fly over the vastness of Canada or Australia may be able to offer a view too?

As has been posted previously,they did not try ‘Night Formation Keeping’ but all Navigators had a ‘Time Over Target’ given to them at the briefing..therefore the saturation effect (concentration of a/c over target !) would depend on the briefed target times for the crews.

cheers baz

Just as a matter of interest, over a blacked-out country as in WW2, I’ve often wondered how well a crew could see once their vision had become accustomed to the dark? Most of us will never have experienced anything like blackout. If there’s no light pollution to prevent the eyes fully “tuning in”, from roughly how far away would a crewman be expected to see another aircraft?

Perhaps that could be a factor in how the bomber stream remained in fairly close proximity? When you see some of the pictures where the bombers are illuminated from below, they do seem to be fairly close and regimented, despite the obvious difficulties in night formation keeping.

I’d be interested in hearing what it was like over a blacked-out Europe, but those on the forum that fly over the vastness of Canada or Australia may be able to offer a view too?

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I found this in the Operation Order for Operation Comet (The 1st Airborne Division’s Operation to capture ALL the bridges) which with two lifts in the first day would’ve required paratroop and tug aircraft flying in the dark.

A couple of small points to add to this interesting discussion: firstly regarding “running lights” or whatever you might like to call them: they were most definitely a “No, no” once heading for enemy territory, but worthy of comment in the ORBs of 467 squadron if somebody accidently, or neglectfully, turned them on over the target. Secondly, I’m in contact with a pilot of 467 squadron (Jack Lindquist) whose career with the squadron was cut short when his Lancaster was in collision with another over the Dortmund-Ems canal in September 1944 (I think only 2 crew survived from the 2 planes). And yes, a couple of hundred bombers were expected to bomb a target such as the DEK in a 20 minute period. Many books describe knowing that other planes were near because of the turbulence that could be felt from the slipstream. Damn scary.
Max
www.galgos.co.uk (undergoing a big upgrade!)

I wonder if today’s 20 year olds would have the foresight and courage to make that sort of decision.

If push came to shove, I imagine there would be enough worthy men to do the job well enough.

Aeronaut – The lateral white strips on the Havoc’s wings were intended – much like what I said?

Formation was hairy enough but when you had to drop down, on instruments, & accelerate ahead of the A20 before it illuminated ******************* Truly not my scene!! Never was an ace at night work.

B17 – just LOVE the Bush Pilot’s dilemma!! Almost equal to some of yours?

I was fortunate to meet an ex-Lancaster pilot at Duxford some years ago and he told me a tale about losing an engine on the way to the target in the Ruhr. Some debate ensued about returning but they pressed on only to have another engine starting to run rough but they still pressed on. They completed the mission and on getting back to base his crew rounded on him and asked why he’d kept going. His reply was “Well we were in the lead group and with 600 more coming our way a 180 could have been a bit dodgy”. I wonder if today’s 20 year olds would have the foresight and courage to make that sort of decision.

The ones who truly deserve those forelocks are those responsible for the design and production of the Mosquito, the aircraft that finally won the Air War for us.

I do appreciate your kind words, JoGlo (great name), though we may be drifting a bit off course here. I believe the thread is night formation flying which I would put in the same category as Japanese skywriting.
I thoroughly agree winning the Air War required a team effort, but no team goes on to victory without making mistakes along the way. And teams have their most valuable players as well as some dodos who are just hanging on.
Now I’m not that stupid that I would venture into a catfight to choose the most valuable aircraft of all the great ships that flew in WW2. However I did say that the Mosquito was the aircraft that finally won the Air War for us.
Consider that this plywood wonder was a twin engine bomber that flew as fast as any fighter plane (non jet) and could carry to Berlin a bombload equal to that of a B17. As a matter of fact, during the last few months of the war they flew daily unescorted night and day missions to Berlin with 2 or 3 man crews, causing more devastation than the lumbering, 4 engine heavies (B17, B 24, Halifaxes, and Lancs),
Release forelocks. Enough for now