WW2 RAF desert war photos

Wonderful Photos…in the first group,Lt B.Herbert 1 SAAF Sqn,was probably
shot down and killed on the 13 feb 1942 by Lt H.Marseille of JG27.
Regards Mike
refer Fighters over the Desert,Shores/Ring page 94

The photos are from a pilot in the SAAF in a SAAF Squadron of a SAAF Wing.

They were part of mixed wing and commanded by an RAF WinCo who was under the command of an Air Vice Marshall, who happened to be a New Zealander….

You can keep digging as deep as you like, but RAF is the wrong term applied here.

Who’s ‘digging?’ No one is claiming they aren’t South Africans, but pointing out RAF isn’t inappropriate even if it is inaccurate.

Jayce, No. 75 (NZ) Squadron was an RAF unit in WWII which was partially crewed by New Zealanders and New Zealand aircraft, and it later transferred to the RNZAF. Meanwhile No’s 485 through to 490 Squadrons were actually RNZAF Squadrons attached to the RAF, not RAF squadrons.

RNZAF squadrons that flew in the Pacific came under USMC command, using US supplied machines under Lease-Lend, and adopting the US operating practices, but no-one would dare to call them USMC squadrons!!

The South African Air Force began in 1919 as an independent Air Force, but traces its origins back to 1912, and was an indepedent Air Force seperate from the RAF, with two Wings flying in North Africa alongside other Allied Air Forces.

The photos are from a pilot in the SAAF in a SAAF Squadron of a SAAF Wing. You can keep digging as deep as you like, but RAF is the wrong term applied here.

Jayce, being a bloody foreigner, not one of the commonwealth people, I’d like to suggest you make a simple exercise:
Imagine this was indeed an RAF album, and it was posted in an American forum under the heading of “WW2 USAAF desert war photos”. Would you try to point it out to the originators that they were in fact RAF not USAAF? And how would you feel if you then got exactly the reply that you just gave? Would you really think that ‘it’s a compliment’?

I see your point, but would consider that Apples and Oranges.

For instance, if they’d said RAF and they were all FAA, then yes, Id’ve pointed that out myself. Just as I’d point out Boot Necks from Pongoes.

All the SAAF, RAAF, RCAF and RNZAF squadrons (and the in-exile sqns) were operating under combined RAF command at the time. In fact the nationalities of the pilots on the squadrons were quite heavily intermingled right from the start of the war. Heck, 71 Squadron was manned by Americans and 75 by New Zealanders, both squadrons were raised directly with those nations in mind, would they not be “RAF squadrons” because of the nationalities involved?

Discendo is right when he says attitudes have changed. One only has to look at the coming Scottish referendum to see the idea of ‘Britishness’ has lost nearly all it’s meaning and value. But while that greater sense of community might seem alien and old fashioned to us, many of our parents, grand-parents and great grand-parents would’ve simply taken it for granted.

It’s important not to loose sight of the zeitgeist when looking at that period of history.

WW2 SAAF desert war photos

The thread header should read SAAF rather than RAF as the text with the photos is written from the SAAF perspective and when RAF postings are mentioned they are described as ‘with xyz Sqdn RAF’ .

That was a rather pompous statement.
The title should remain. They were using RAF equipment :rolleyes:

And your statement in answer to the query from New Zealand was dismissive and rude, which was the reason for my ‘pompous statement’.

Jayce, the point in your initial post is well made, but much has changed in the intervening 70 years.

I have no wish to divert this thread and the kind gesture of the original poster, the photos are indeed superb.

DD

Jayce, being a bloody foreigner, not one of the commonwealth people, I’d like to suggest you make a simple exercise:
Imagine this was indeed an RAF album, and it was posted in an American forum under the heading of “WW2 USAAF desert war photos”. Would you try to point it out to the originators that they were in fact RAF not USAAF? And how would you feel if you then got exactly the reply that you just gave? Would you really think that ‘it’s a compliment’?

Obviously my mistake, every airman and aeroplane that took part on the winning side was obviously belonging to the Royal Air Force then.

Note that the Italian ‘Reggia Aeronautica’, incidentally, means ‘Royal Air Force’, too.
How fortunate the Third Reich was not a kingdom…

Dave, while I completely understand why the need to make the distinction is important to you and others. The lack of a distinction is important to us, for the same reasons, the men and women from the commonwealth are our equals, as it should be.

It’s not a patronizing slight, it’s a compliment.

Obviously my mistake, every airman and aeroplane that took part on the winning side was obviously belonging to the Royal Air Force then.

Wonderful, many thanks for sharing the link.

I note the that the query came from New Zealand, part of the British Commonwealth, just as South Africa was at the time. They, and the Canadians and Australians for that matter, don’t take kindly to being described as something they are not.

The author of the photo albums was a South African on an SAAF squadron; and I think that it’s important that we don’t forget their contribution and sacrifice.

Perhaps the thread title could be changed, in the interest of accuracy?

DD

That was a rather pompous statement.
The title should remain. They were using RAF equipment :rolleyes:

Thanks – I can see now that it is a Curtiss. Just looked so short…

Jon

I note the that the query came from New Zealand, part of the British Commonwealth, just as South Africa was at the time. They, and the Canadians and Australians for that matter, don’t take kindly to being described as something they are not.

The author of the photo albums was a South African on an SAAF squadron; and I think that it’s important that we don’t forget their contribution and sacrifice.

Perhaps the thread title could be changed, in the interest of accuracy?

DD

It’s nothing to do with slighting them and more to do with the fact they all fought shoulder to shoulder. As such most of us see no point in making an artificial distinction between fighting men who all swore an oath to the same King.

To me, they’ll all part of ‘the family’ wether they were born in Michigan or Mombasa, or Pretoria or Prestwick.

Hawk 75 or (More likely?) Tomahawk – hard to tell with no engine.

I think its a Allison P-40 as the firewall on the Hawk was further foreward on the radial engined aircraft.
Lovely archive which perhaps goes a small way towards showing the nightmare of trying to maintain and operate aircraft in that situation with all the dust and sand let alone the heat, flies and lack of water. It must have been hell.

Richard

SAAF, but who cares…..they are superb.

I note the that the query came from New Zealand, part of the British Commonwealth, just as South Africa was at the time. They, and the Canadians and Australians for that matter, don’t take kindly to being described as something they are not.

The author of the photo albums was a South African on an SAAF squadron; and I think that it’s important that we don’t forget their contribution and sacrifice.

Perhaps the thread title could be changed, in the interest of accuracy?

DD

Hawk 75 or (More likely?) Tomahawk – hard to tell with no engine.

Thanks for sharing!

On the german boneyard – there is a shortish A/C in the middle of the shot, seemingly with overpainted roundels.

What is it?

Jon

Curtis Hawk ????

Thanks for sharing!

On the german boneyard – there is a shortish A/C in the middle of the shot, seemingly with overpainted roundels.

What is it?

Jon

A fascinating historical record – thanks for posting!