WW2 RAF Fighter Pilots Personal weapons

It’s worth remembering with firearms that “horses for courses” is phrase most applicable, a .38 pistol round will kill you just as certainly as a rifle at short range, which is what the weapon was designed to do; in close quarter fighting I’d rather a pistol than a rifle.

If two soldiers carrying rifles approached you and you were concealed with the element of suprise then the odds would be in your favour; you can loose off six shots with a Webley in the time it takes aim and fire a rifle twice and they don’t jam! (like an auto)

Slightly drifting OT………

In the not-too-distant past, on ops in a verdant corner of the UK I would routinely carry a 5.56mm HK53 assault rifle, as would my co-pilot, while our crewman carried a 9mm Browning HP in addition to his GPMG. Only the 9mm was for self-defence – we were expected, within our rules of engagement, to use the other weapons in the event the opposition had a go at us or those we were charged to protect.

Which, occasionally, they would.

Our Harrier crews carried shoulder holstered FN 9mm’s.

But during the Falklands conflict the pilots from HMS Invincible were forced to design their own shoulder holster for the 9mm which was then put into production by the on-board Chinese laundry/tailoring shop.

The pilots were also under no illusions about the effectiveness of the 9mm as a weapon but thought that if they ended up in their dingy it may be of some use…..against a shark!

My son drives Challenger II’s and is evidently sometimes issued with a 9mm automatic…including when he drives the new-ish armoured trucks they have too. (Mastif?) Anyway, he would concur about awkwardness!!

The gun or the truck?

Glad to see an equipment update:

As Mark said – see photo.

Thank you David! That’s the one I’ve been trying to find!!!

Interesting you should mention tank crews side-arms.

My son drives Challenger II’s and is evidently sometimes issued with a 9mm automatic…including when he drives the new-ish armoured trucks they have too. (Mastif?) Anyway, he would concur about awkwardness!!

Were they wearing the standard flap holster or the cut away tankers one?

Didn’t the Venoms have bang seats though?
As such it might not be such an issue with vacating the aircraft as with trying to get out of a tumbling or whatever piston fighter and getting caught by something you had on. I know how awkward it is wearing a belt n holster just driving a WW2 Jeep or light armoured car let alone wearing one in the confines of a cramped cockpit:eek: That’s why they devised the armoured tankers holster and long strap belt, although that presented another set of problems and wasn’t well liked by armoured troops either, although the cut away holster was.

Again, I’d never say never.

As Mark said – see photo.

Later there were also a number of Browning FN pistols of Belgian origin.

Not without a German armourer having given one of those a very thorough check over and testing first 😉

I agree, I would say hardly any or very, very few RAF pilots did so, but you can never say never.
I think it was more common for Luftwaffe pilots on the Eastern Front to carry a PP/K or similar, and many of those spent time evading capture and making their way back to the German lines, Heinz Bar famously doing so over a 3 day period with what turned out to be a broken back sustained after his bail out!
The USAAF and USN/USMC pilots were of course an exception to this, being eventually specifically equipped with the M3 shoulder holster for such purposes.

Firebird – it was not just on the Eastern front that Luftwaffe pilots and aircrew carried sidearms. They were almost invariably carried during ops over the UK. It would have been unusual if not. Usually Walther PPK, P.38 or a Luger. Later there were also a number of Browning FN pistols of Belgian origin.

In the Schweinfurt-Regensburg book by Martin Middlebrook a B-17 pilot is mentioned as carrying a pistol and being determined to fight it out should he be forced to bale-out over Germany.

As it happened he was forced to bale-out on this mission and was killed on the ground in exactly those circumstances. German casualties are not mentioned.

I believe it was standard for US pilots to carry sidearms. A B24 Navigator I got to know, said that when he was shot down, it was the first thing the German soldiers who captured him asked for.

Interesting link to the revolver site Tony, it’s not often you see something wartime related and think ‘that’s almost cheap’.
On a similar thread, Stuka crews seem to have travelled a little more ‘tooled up’ .This one is from Russia:
http://warrelics.eu/forum/armour-weapons-aircraft/ju-87-d-wreck-june-2007-found-russia-7804/
I think there is some evidence of MP40s being carried over the UK as well.

Did the Smith and Wesson come out of a PR Spit, Andy?

Ian

You are on bang target :rolleyes: with your deduction about the origin of the Smith & Wesson.

Certainly evidence exists for MP40’s being carried by Ju87 crews over the UK as a matter of routine. I have found a MP40 magazine at a site in the UK. Another that was shot down at Grimstone in Dorset also carried such a weapon.

Carrying .45 service revolvers was relatively common by single seat RAF fighter pilots of WW2 – despite the bulk of the weapon.

Here is a Smith & Wesson carried by a Spitfire pilot lost in 1942.

Many pilots talk of the “comfort factor” in carrying a side arm, and after D-Day it was standard compulsory issue to RAF pilots operating over the front. There are also a good many stories (pre D-Day too!!) of RAF fighter pilots finding the weapon something useful to have rather than a useless encumbrance when shot down over enemy held territory.

I am not sure about Malcolm McKay’s assertion that when carried by Officers in WW1 when going “over the top” it was used primarily to shoot laggards on your own side rather than an offensive weapon per se. I would have thought it would have been an emminently useful tool to have when taking enemy trenches or dug-outs. Still, what do I know. Anyway, we are getting off topic a tad.

I have a S&W .455 revolver issued to 43 Squadron RFC in 1916, condition is near mint and it is fully operational.

http://i582.photobucket.com/albums/ss268/MMcKay_album/SW2.jpg which suggests that it was a souvenir.

Also of interest is the fact that that the belt – and presumably the rest of the set -is RAF 1925 Pattern webbing – note that the belt has no brass sliders as seen in the 1937 pattern webbing belts.

probably because the 1925 pattern webbing/holster was bigger to cater for the bigger frame and calibre of the early Webley…..as my webbing friend told me when I asked him if he had a spare holster!!!

Incidentally, I do need a holster and lanyard, the earlier the date the better!!!

Sidearms were popular here in the pacific theatre,especially here in Australia where the most dangerous opponents were the wildlife.

Interesting link to the revolver site Tony, it’s not often you see something wartime related and think ‘that’s almost cheap’.
On a similar thread, Stuka crews seem to have travelled a little more ‘tooled up’ .This one is from Russia:
http://warrelics.eu/forum/armour-weapons-aircraft/ju-87-d-wreck-june-2007-found-russia-7804/
I think there is some evidence of MP40s being carried over the UK as well.

Did the Smith and Wesson come out of a PR Spit, Andy?

As I sit reading this interesting thread, I am in fact wearing my 1914 Webley ammunition pouch on my belt. It’s very useful for carrying “doggy training treats” for my new Spaniel puppy. My 1916 Mk VI pistol, now sadly de-activated, is locked away with my other toys. I use them as props for for talks.

Of interest to the arming of aircrew, the RFC contingent of the BEF in 1914 were issued with the rare “birds head” .455 Webley loaded with “dum dum” bullets. Strictly against the Geneva Convention. Our Harrier crews carried shoulder holstered FN 9mm’s.

John

I believe a considerable number of Model 17’s were issued to RAF fighter pilots in WW2. Its not the only one I have seen.

Here is another example of a tooled-up RAF fighter pilot during the Battle of Britain. I am pretty sure it is a Webley, but of interest is the lanyard arrangment mentioned previously.

Also of interest is the fact that that the belt – and presumably the rest of the set -is RAF 1925 Pattern webbing – note that the belt has no brass sliders as seen in the 1937 pattern webbing belts.

some interesting replies….thanx and also thanx for the S&W shot Tangers old chap (as an aside, tried to pm you, but as ever, you are a popular chap!)

I used to own an Enfield2 and it was my preferred gun for the cockpit….but alas I had to sell it some time ago to fund some thingy for the Hurricane! The Mk4 (a 38) was nice and cheap! This acoutrement just makes an interesting addition to the display.

incidentally, here is a link to that rather nice S&W Victory revolver at a good price (supplied originally under Lendlease)
http://www.worldwidearms.com/popup.cfm?p_n=97133&p_i=97133

Yes, does look to have a rounded butt and be a Webley rather than an Enfield.

Lanyard arrangement like that was common practice in Army usage, although more often seen in army field usuage seen hooped around the right shoulder under the fastened epaulet, then under the button down flap of the tunic/BD blouse.

I’m more interested in that dark triangle area on his right upper arm at the shoulder….??
I can’t think what insignia is that or was that, that maybe has been blanked out by a censor…?

Love the exhaust on the AJS 😀

I’m with you on the exhaust, not just a fish tail, a whole dover sole!

To quote B-52 pilot Major T. J. Kong from the movie ‘Dr Strangelove’:

“Survival kit contents check. In them you’ll find: one forty-five caliber automatic; two boxes of ammunition; four days’ concentrated emergency rations; one drug issue containing antibiotics, morphine, vitamin pills, pep pills, sleeping pills, tranquilizer pills; one miniature combination Russian phrase book and Bible; one hundred dollars in roubles; one hundred dollars in gold; nine packs of chewing gum; one issue of prophylactics; three lipsticks; three pair of nylon stockings.

Shoot, a fella could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff!” 😀