WWII aircraft and asbestos

firesuits

Yes James, ww2 firesuits were made from asbestos in some countries. We have a firesuit on board our 1040’s fire truck that is made of asbestos. It is securely locked in a steel cabinet on the firetruck.

I understand that the famous crash crew suits used by the RAF and FAA were actually made from asbestos – a great example of a chronic problem solving an acute one. 🙁

Clarification welcome.

http://www.viewimages.com/Search.aspx?mid=3296205

Crash crews used large Asbestos fire blankets these may turn up, however if you identify it, it has to be specially bagged and is then special hazardous waste which can only be disposed of at about 2 locations in the UK which is why removal is so costly.

We encountered two such Fire blankets whilst investigating the crash site of P-51B 43-6635 which crashed whilst attempting an emergency landing at Knowsley Park on 16th February 1944, sadly resulting in the death of its pilot Flight Officer Eugene S. Rybaczek. They were amazingly intact and still bore legible air ministry markings (the aircraft was American, but the landing ground RAF) – fortunately they were well waterlogged and were safely and correctly bagged up for disposal – seemed a shame really!

New age replacement..

Soon to have our firewall cut out and was wondering of the new material we could use for the fireproofing.Nomex comes to mind..It is .125″ thick with the two ally sandwich sheets at .022″.:cool:

The Hornet cockpit had asbestos insulation between the cockpit heating intake/valve and the woodwork. Fortunately making this area from new, and on a static cockpit, this won’t be a problem for me.

Interesting stuff. I have found out since that asbestos was used around the Vickers K-gun in the Whitleys front turret. This was to protect the leather sock that kept the wind and rain out of the firing aperture.

So, Fraser Nash turret owners – beware!

I tend to agree with most of the statements posted on this subject.

Asbestos during the war years, 50’s & 60’s, there was not much thought about personal safety in handling this stuff. Not like today.

Asbestos took on many forms and not just in the obivous either. Anywhere where heat was prevented to spread in firewalls/pipes/engines etc but in flooring and wall insulation as well. If wreckage is found, what are the chances of asbestos being present, small I would imagine. As for restoration projects, be careful in areas you think asbestos could be present.

Providing you carry out the relative risk assessment and being prepared with plastic bags/seals and labels if you do find any, I cannot see any authority taking you to task.

Slightly off topic, owners of old council houses and houses with early types of artexed ceilings beware. These coated ceilings had asbestos fibres included in there make up unbeknown to their owners. Early floor tiles had asbestos included too.

Brian.

I have seen asbestos sandwiched between two aluminium skins in both a mark V spitfire firewall and and on Anson mark 1 firewalls, but I have not seen it used in the same place on US designs of the same period, so I assume this was a uniquelly UK design strategy perhaps adopted in the late 30’s by particular UK manufacturers like Avro and Supermarine or alternatively required via RAF specification? to lengthen the withstand of an engine fire?

I think you’ll find that US WWII aircraft have quite a bit of asbestos in them from ducts to firewall seals and sandwich joints.

Bomberboy

Hi all,

Just to re-iterate what Junk Collector has just posted. One of my past remits was asbestos removal from Jaguar and you’d be surprised where it would turn up. Prior to 1974, asbestos fibre was added to the adhesive used in making up the honeycomb panels on the aircraft and because you couldn’t identify accurately when each panel had been manufactured, a blanket statement was put into the Vol 6 to the effect that ALL honeycomb on the aircraft was to be treated as if it contained asbestos. IIRC the sealant (PRC) also contained the nasty stuff up to a certain date. The upshot of all of this was that if it remained undisturbed on the aircraft, it wasn’t ideal but was acceptable.

As an aside, a few years ago our project team was contacted to see if anyone recognised a drop tank that was used as a mini submarine on the Scrapheap Challenge programme. A concerned viewer wrote to the producers as he was an ex rigger and knew that some drop tanks were made out of asbestos composite (as the Jaguars was), needless to say we couldn’t identify it, having only a video to look at, which showed dust and c**p spread far and wide whilst they were cutting into it

Beaufighters have a large heating duct in the cockpit which is asbestos lagged. I would immagine it is found everywhere in aircraft from heating and insulation to gaskets and seals.

Asbestos takes many forms.
The most common is the hard sheeting (sometimes laminated), which is safe and can remain, unless cracked or drilled etc.
The others are blue and brown asbestos, this was used for pipe, boiler and other irregular shape lagging, it was made up in vats and applied like thick paste. This is now dangerous and should be profesionally removed when it is found, it is highly fibreous and often breaks up after time.
There are many variations and should never be disturbed by anyone other than asbestos licenced removers.
It is also a legal minefield. How do I know?, I used to remove it from ships and factories.

Asbestos is a funny thing it frightens people by the mere word thinking they are going to drop dead immediately if they walk past some.

I have dealt with a couple of major asbestos incidents in my work (H&S enforcement).

My advice is always assume there is asbestos and take appropriate precautions. I would think for a dump dig you would have to do quite a few risk assessments to pacify the Local Authorities, if they are worried, although only a trained professional can identify it in a lab !

I would imagine all aircraft up to the late 1970’s used it in various ways.

There are 3 main types

Chrysotile – White Asbestos
Amosite – Brown Asbestos
Crocidolite – Blue Asbestos

Very generally brown and blue are the most harmful but in the correct exposure rate it is all harmful. Aircraft I would imagine would use a mixture of Blue/Brown in different locations. Chrysotile is the more common domestic used one in sheet form which is 90% cement and 10% asbestos, and is safe unless you cut or drill it daily. I preferred it on my garage than the useless plastic I have now.

Current UK regulations require commercial operations to identify it on their premises and advise contractors where it is. Removal is required if it is judged to be in a poor state liberating fibres.

Temporarily the common remedy to limit it, is to spray suspected areas with a water/PVA solution to seal it ,or paint, prior to removal, by licenced professionals of course.

You will see it in aircraft gaskets etc, sometimes in the form of a coarse woven cloth, I have seen it behind Merlin stubs, if you dig some up it probably will be damp and relatively safe, I think it would be unlikely you would recognise it immediately.

Crash crews used large Asbestos fire blankets these may turn up, however if you identify it, it has to be specially bagged and is then special hazardous waste which can only be disposed of at about 2 locations in the UK which is why removal is so costly.

Battle firewall

Hi , all the battle firewall is made up of a alloy sheet , asbestos , alloy sheet sandwich .

cheers dave

Asbestos in AVRO aircraft

Dear all

I have read your posts with interest as I am currently researching and trying to establish the use of asbestos in AVRO aircraft, specifically in the AVRO 748, Vulcan and Lancaster aeroplanes.

If anyone has any information regarding the use of asbestos within the AVRO aircraft, especially when it was being manufactured at the Woodford Factory in Stockport, Cheshire, I would be grateful if you could provide me with any details.

Alternatively, if you have contact details for anyone who would be able to shed more light on this, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Rahat

Hi all

Very intersing Topic

Last year I trecked all the way from Australia to the UK for a fantastic tour of the UK aviation Museums and of particular interest was the Beaufighter at East Fortune . Well it was a no go because Asbestos had just been discovered in the fuselage near the Gun tubes I believe and they closed off the whole hanger as a result whilst it was cleaned up. I don’t believe it resulted in the loss of any components so perhaps you could contact East fortune and ask them about what happened and how it was dealt with.

As an aside the asbestos issue is very topical here as hundreds of Australians working with the stuff or just living near mines are dying of asbestosis and related conditions and it has been proven that relatively light exposure can be lethal.

Kindest regards
John Parker

Duxfordhawk
I think that there is also a brown asbestos…
OAW

Going off on a slight tangent, but in a similar vein:

I asked the RAF Museum at Cosford if a group of 11 of us could enter Handley Page Hastings TG511 at Cosford in June 2005 for a very special occasion. The reply is interesting as whether you flew/flew in or worked on aircraft from yesteryear beware as this is the OFFICIAL reply I received in April 2004:

“I regret that I must disappoint you. Our prime task is to preserve objects in the collection for future generations in their original condition as far as possible. While access to check for deterioration and to implement necessary conservation measures is essential, we do not permit routine access which would inevitably add to the fair wear and tear already accumulated in service. There are also significant health and safety hazards in some older aircraft, including the radiation from aging luminous-painted markings, which in an enlightened and increasingly litigious age impede us. Finally, current staffing levels do not enable us to provide the level of supervision needed to meet this type of request. I hope you will understand why this policy is in place.”

So there you have it:-

………including the radiation from aging luminous-painted markings, which in an enlightened and increasingly litigious age impede us. 😮 😮 😮

Yep – Arm Waver is spot on (I’m a Lawyer and the new regs are already provoking problems) Whitley Project – dump digs are great – am sure you and i have done our fair share in the past, the problem is two fold –

1) the dump has usually been burnt – ok asbestos is fire resistant, but does degrade after being in a fire! nevermind effects of time etc
2) watch the water table – if you disturb nasties, such as oil, heavy metals lead etc when digging, then they will leach into local streams etc – the landowner will be majorly ****** off if the Environment agency trace it…not normally a factor on aircraft crashes (small amounts of nasties ok)

I know that all this Health and Safety gubbins is annoying but they can and will clobber you…so be careful….never mind the rusty stuff, the morphine phials we came across on one dig (thousands of them) were also worrying…..made the dig go quicker though. Man.

Thanks Texantomcat

I am a bit on the worried side and the authorities are already involved. I have visions of chunks of Whitley being sealed in containers and buried or some-such nightmarish scenario. We’ll see how it pans out and i’ll keep you posted.

Elliott

As I believe it Asbestos is safe unless disturbed or damaged resulting in spores becoming airborne.
Had some scares at some places I’ve worked and have filled a form stating I may have been exposed to it (held at Doctors and I think personnel file).
OAW

I believe this to be true also,Its the spores that can do harm not anything else,Also i think there is two types of Asbestos Blue and white i seen to remember Blue being worst type but its been long time since directly dealt with it.
As a youngster i grew up with asbestos in a house where builders used asbestos almost everywhere and was exposed to it in broken up form at least twice once in the loft which was very unpleasant but touch wood no ill effects.
My Mum still lives in the same house and none of the Cupboards that include asbestos have been removed mind you with the amount of paint on them i doubt a bullet would go through them let alone any spores be released.
On a end note it was odd a few years back to see contractors workingg on houses near my mums removing asbestos facias on council ones they just knocked them down no netting or any other safety equipment to deal with it ,But on privately owned ones they had netting they sealed windows the lot funny world eh

Yep – Arm Waver is spot on (I’m a Lawyer and the new regs are already provoking problems) Whitley Project – dump digs are great – am sure you and i have done our fair share in the past, the problem is two fold –

1) the dump has usually been burnt – ok asbestos is fire resistant, but does degrade after being in a fire! nevermind effects of time etc
2) watch the water table – if you disturb nasties, such as oil, heavy metals lead etc when digging, then they will leach into local streams etc – the landowner will be majorly ****** off if the Environment agency trace it…not normally a factor on aircraft crashes (small amounts of nasties ok)

I know that all this Health and Safety gubbins is annoying but they can and will clobber you…so be careful….never mind the rusty stuff, the morphine phials we came across on one dig (thousands of them) were also worrying…..made the dig go quicker though. Man.

Arm waver is correct.
This was the reason that our lancaster had to have it removed especially from inside the fuselage. It was easily handled as a thing to hang onto when walking inside the fuselage when it started to come apart it was removed for health and safety reasons.