XH558 – the future!

I don’t think people are grasping how much money it costs to operate a fleet of vintage aircraft . Its not a sure fire way of making money -far from it. The operation at Coventry I imagine cost a lot of money -if it wasn’t making money are Classic expected to continue loosing money no matter what?
The new operation at Newquay might not suit everyone -however if it means there is money to continue the operating the machines so much the better!
Maybe its worth waiting to review it after its opened and not before?
As for the Vulcan -the priority has to be a hangar over it before any ideas of taxying about.

vulcan

what?? 3 years? i stand corrected. either way its not really a way of illustrating to your council, your public and perhaps even more importantly to your work force including your volunteers that youre in it for the long haul, i know that this is costing the owners a fortune and that it would probably have been easier to sell it all off, but i still feel that Coventry hasnt been given a fair crack of the whip. Anyway ill shut up cos ive spouted enough on this subject already.

Totally agree. Some might complain that most types end up at Bruntingthorpe, but that is for a very good reason. It is a secure site owned and run by a tried and trusted organisation. No point the Vulcan retiring to a ‘more fitting’ airfield just because of its past history if it means its continued preservation is less than secure.

Rob

+1

Vulcan ‘the future’

Its absolutely no use planning to retire XH558 to St mawgan, It can only be a matter of a few years at best before they ‘upsticks’ and move again, after all they gave Coventry two years to establish its self and then moved south to try things there, where next , Lossiemouth?.

Now there’s an idea for as to where XH558 could finally come to rest!
Classic Air Force Museum would be there for the visitor throughput, huge hangar to house it, plenty of room to taxy, and some relevancy to the V-Bomber ORPS built there and practice deployments to them, and regular Vulcan excercises that were held there!

Great Idea … that was my second choice after Bruntingthorpe in the VTTSC Forum Poll 😉

Denis,

Much respect – however, I distinctly remember an early 90’s display at Woodford at which XH558 did x2 displays and multiple takeoffs to go to other displays around the country. What I am saying is – are all of the above items totally neccesary? As the Vulcan seemed to do alright without all of these things then.

PC

That because she was still in the RAF with all their logistical back up and all that gear was still in RAF inventory… now the kit that VTTST has is almost unique and at very least scarce….

Stad is air starter..v.rare…
GPU… 60KVa Electrical Ground PowerUnit… available at most places but not guaranteed… so need to take their own..
Towing Arm Totally unique to Vulcan and the aircraft cannot be moved on the ground without it….. VTTST has two[I think] only others are with grounded Vulcans, can’t rely on borrowing any of these plus I think they have to be certified and at a guess the others are not.

VTTST is a civillian company, that must be self relient and can not rely on service help to survive… that’s not to say the RAF dosn’t help, they do but it’s at station commanders discretion and not a given.

They (VTTST) have to make their own logistical arrangements…

All this has to be paid for…. up front 😉

-a visit to St Mawgan…

Now there’s an idea for as to where XH558 could finally come to rest!
Classic Air Force Museum would be there for the visitor throughput, huge hangar to house it, plenty of room to taxy, and some relevancy to the V-Bomber ORPS built there and practice deployments to them, and regular Vulcan excercises that were held there!

Denis – I never said they would be round trips ! You presumed . What I said was a tour in much the same way that the tour was a few weeks ago . Except in this case seek sponsorship so the aircraft can actually land and stay a day so people
who have not had the opportunity to see her can . The whole idea seems to work well in the U.S with numerous operators who fly multiple engined warbirds to different venues . In a country that is comparatively tiny in comparison it doesn’t seem that difficult.
The whole purpose of the VTTS was always in my mind to reach as many people as possible -I mentioned St Mawgan as it has a strong RAF heritage and Manston as it was the venue for V-bombers on a number of occasions.

As for your fuel figures I don’t really see your point ! I know it costs money to run . Stating what it burns at 59000ft is completely irrelevant as you cannot tell me how much fuel it uses to get to that height and I should imagine that is a service example at different weights. You could tell me what it does burn at low level quite easily as I should imagine VTTS have that information to hand and for the purpose of the thread people might find it factually interesting.

As for me mentioning ‘fantasy/cloud cuckoo land somewhere earlier’ – would be pleased if you would point out the post as your recollection of it is far stronger than mine.

Denis,

Much respect – however, I distinctly remember an early 90’s display at Woodford at which XH558 did x2 displays and multiple takeoffs to go to other displays around the country. What I am saying is – are all of the above items totally neccesary? As the Vulcan seemed to do alright without all of these things then.

PC

Bruce -as you rightly say it wasn’t VTTS’s booking that took her to Woodford.
As has been pointed out by many this was possibly the most significant year in the operation of the Vulcan. By taking part at Southport, Woodford and Carfest she effectively was taken off doing any fly overs in the North West on the tour she carried out. Whilst some would argue two of the events being notified before hand was enough -there are many with North West roots (including me) that see
a huge significance in AVRO built aircraft flying over the North West -with Chadderton and Woodford being prime sites..

David
Do you not read/listen to anything that is said to you?

I have already said that she will go nowhere unless somebody pays the bill first because VTTST can’t afford to fund it.

I have also said that even at 59000ft she used 2 gallons to the mile which equates to 10 ltrs at 59p per ltre which equals…..£5.90 per mile ….. and thats just the fuel…

At 10000ft I would guess you could conservatively double or even treble, maybe more of the fuel burn… you do the maths….

.

As maybe a pointer for the future VTTS could consider a ‘meet and greet’ style tour if it does become her last season . Find geographic positions that would accept her landing and be able to have some kind of public notification and indeed fundraising . To give her some outreach I would suggest a landing in Scotland -a visit to St Mawgan and maybe somewhere like Manston to cover the South East.

OMG….Here you go again… who is going to pay for this? considering the fuel costs alone for your 500 or 600+ mile round trip?

Add to this the landing fees, crew accomodation/support, plus ground crew transportation/accomodation/support costs, and for transportation of GPU, Stad, TOWING ARM and spare parts that would be required, to your 2-3 landing sites at either ends of the country…

This alone would take a couple of 40ft Artics and hired drivers and days of travelling..plus anything, costwise I have not covered.. and that is just the operational side and dosn’t include the Vulcan Village/merchandising/PR support on the various landing sites and all their transportation, accomodation and support costs.. A logistical nightmare..:eek::eek:

Just not feasable… you mentioned fantasy/cloud cuckoo land somewhere earlier….. this idea sure is…:rolleyes:

Bruce -as you rightly say it wasn’t VTTS’s booking that took her to Woodford.
As has been pointed out by many this was possibly the most significant year in the operation of the Vulcan. By taking part at Southport, Woodford and Carfest she effectively was taken off doing any fly overs in the North West on the tour she carried out. Whilst some would argue two of the events being notified before hand was enough -there are many with North West roots (including me) that see
a huge significance in AVRO built aircraft flying over the North West -with Chadderton and Woodford being prime sites.

As maybe a pointer for the future VTTS could consider a ‘meet and greet’
style tour if it does become her last season . Find geographic positions that would accept her landing and be able to have some kind of public notification and indeed fundraising . To give her some outreach I would suggest a landing in Scotland -a visit to St Mawgan and maybe somewhere like Manston to cover the South East.

……. it so annoyed me to see so many missunderstandings about the Trust finances/operations..

Yes, I can imagine so. Your contributions are extremely helpfiul to set against some of the more wildly inaccurate assumptions made here. Perhaps a bit more openess, within what is judged advisable, would help.

Oh, and Denis, I do (as I am sure do others), appreciate your insiders input; much was written about the operation without any inside knowledge whatever, which has led to huge misconceptions.

Bruce

My pleasure ..we were specificly asked not to endulge in Forum activity for self evident reasons;) ……. it so annoyed me to see so many missunderstandings about the Trust finances/operations.. which I still can’t talk about due to my Confidentiallity Agreement…. there are so many things I could clear up and questions I could answer but I can’t… sorry, but I will discuss as many future points of interest as I can…..up to a point….:o

At the last American Air Day two American C-130’s operated quite happily from Duxford. Vulcans have landed on grass in the past -I don’t think weight is an issue..

Weight isn’t necessarily an issue, it’s not the size of the aircraft but its footprint, one of the highest is actually a Gulfstream, it puts more lbs per square inch on the Tarmac than the majority of the Boeing range.

What I am suggesting is that this was possibly the last time ever that an AVRO built aircraft (indeed any aircraft) might operate from Woodford airfield.
That it was a private event was a decision of the people booking it. To some the people who built aircraft at Woodford for many years might seem an obvious
choice on any invite list. The implication that an overflight of Woodford airfield
might affect a planning application for 950 homes will seem rather strange to many when effectively the application will see the end of flying not a continuation of.

Err, David as you say, it was a private event; a decision made by the people who booked it. No reason to bash VTTS at all on this one.

I have been a critic of the project, particularly in the early days; I didnt believe it could be done. There were so many obstacles to overcome, all of which they did, that I am prepared to change my position. Whether you agree with their methods is a moot point right now; it worked.

I would also point everyone to the point of this thread; to discuss the future of the aircraft; not rake up the past.

Oh, and Denis, I do (as I am sure do others), appreciate your insiders input; much was written about the operation without any inside knowledge whatever, which has led to huge misconceptions.

Bruce

Denis -its not a comment on who booked Woodford. To upset people who worked there shows that maybe a little more imagination could have come into play. There is a sizeable cost in getting her to the area – to attend a charity car show and a private event is fine -it doesn’t take a massive amount of imagination to come up with a fly over of somewhere that won’t cost massive congestion and please people who maybe don’t have the ability or funds to attend events.

David
That aircraft goes nowhere unless it’s paid for.. a few years ago a simple flyby started at around £5k and going upwards on a sliding scale, depending how much of a diversion from the primary flight track there was to its next venue.
That aircraft is a thirsty beast and in service she carried a full fuel load of 9600gallons which gave it a range of approx 4600mls, at its most economic operational altitude of 56000ft…

Ergo, at its best?………..approx 2 galls to the mile…

Now 558 operates at a max of 10000ft where the fuel burn is considerably higher… I have the actual figures somewhere from when I did presentations for the Trust .

To give you an idea.. when we had her at Bruntingthorpe on a fast taxy..

20seconds at full power?… fuel burn was around… £1,000 …..and that was in the mid 1990s….

It’s the same now..When we run our Victor [which has 33% more thrust than the Vulcan] and the Comet at our CWJ Days, they both return with their oleos about an inch to inch and a half longer due to having burned off a considerable amount of weight in fuel .

I believe that the fuel burn per open day is around …. £6,000-£10,000 mark, plus there other hidden costs such as Tyres, Oils, Nitrogen, Hydraulic Fluid and vented fuel dropped on newly laid tarmac, damage costing many thousands of pounds to repair… yes it’s happened..:eek: :o:o

Apparrently No 4 has been replaced. Why? Not much left for fall back engines is there. Or is it me?:(
http://www.vulcantothesky.org/news/416/82/Photo-report-on-engine-change.html

It’s the old high debris No2 engine..refitted so they can run tests on it to re-certify it for flight

Engine Change?

Apparrently No 4 has been replaced. Why? Not much left for fall back engines is there. Or is it me?:(
http://www.vulcantothesky.org/news/416/82/Photo-report-on-engine-change.html

That’s an issue to take up with the organisers not the trust. The trust gave the reasons they were given not to announce the fly past. To question the trust over the actions and reasoning of a separate organisation is pushing it a bit, even for a forum!!