XH558 – The Vulcan Will Fly

Sadly this is not the case as it does not all come down to money. The CAA will not allow certain type’s to fly in the UK no matter how much cash you spend on them. HLF could donate a couple of million to getting a shack flyign over in the UK but if the CAA and DA do not aprove then it wont be able to fly.

Surely though in the case of the Shack, the CAA’s objection is to do with BAe design authority, and pressumably their concern over the spar fatique life, so throwing shed loads (HLF millions) at BAe for them to do a PA474 style re-spar would surely satisfy the CAA….

Suffice to say, it would seem logical that, if VTS is a roaring success (excuse pun!), especially from LHF point of view, it may go a long way to softening attitudes and policies with regards to Flying preservations, especially with the DA’s and maybe CAA, who knows? if it works out for a Vulcan, it could work for a shack or a Bucc.

Sadly this is not the case as it does not all come down to money. The CAA will not allow certain type’s to fly in the UK no matter how much cash you spend on them. HLF could donate a couple of million to getting a shack flyign over in the UK but if the CAA and DA do not aprove then it wont be able to fly.

Their are a lot of people who think HLF could fund a rebuild on somethign and that means it will fly but thats crap as the CAA are in charge and get the last say on what will or wont fly.

As for the Bucc well who knows ? 😉 but lets just say XX885 is coming along very well nice work HHA.

Bruce,

I think that in this instance it is the specific aircraft, not just a representative of a type, that is being preserved. Thus, 558 should, once retired from flying, be kept in whatever state she last flew in. That in itself is a point of historical interest. An d i’ll stand by my statment that the majority of people won’t actually know what the damn thing is unless there is a board in front of it stating what it is.

My own view is that aircraft should be in the air, and if by removing various bits of kit that are superfluous to the current operation we can simplify maintenance and keep them airborne for longer, then so much the better. Likewise, I don’t think object to non military paint schemes on former military jets (but that’s a WHOLE different thread!)

Hello again!

I dont actually disagree with your latter statement – if the systems are redundant from a flying point, of view, then there is an argument not to use them, and possibly remove them altogether. There is a general movement within the warbird movement to return flying aircraft to totally stock condition, with all parts in place, but that too is another discussion.

You are correct too, that Joe Public will not know what these things are unless you tell them. The schoolkids of today will not remember the Vulcan flying, and it will not be relevant to their lives in the future; in that respect, we are already a generation away from the last flight of the type. My point here, is that specific aircraft, and events are quickly forgotten. Whilst XH558 might be of great interest to the Vulcan fanatics, as being the last Vulcan to fly, and the only one to fly in civilian guise, it will still be just another Vulcan, so the point that we would be preserving a particular aircraft as opposed to a type of aicraft is largely irrelevant I suggest. In 200 years, it will be all the same!

Andrew makes a good point – If another regional museum such as YAM could provide hangarage, and a place for regular exercise, then it would be a far better prospect. In twenty or thirty years time, when the static Vulcans are dwindling, we will only have the aircraft housed undercover to remind future generations at all.

Cheers for now!

Bruce

As has already been mentioned in this thread, the fact that LHF have agreed on condition to stump up 50% funds for a platform to be returned to flight status, is a milestone, and a fortunate reversal in policy.
However, whatever speculation/critisism is levelled at VTS, the whole enthusiast community should be backing this project 100%, since whatever the outcome of this project, it is sure to colour the thinking of future decisions by LHF and DA’s for similar applications.Suffice to say, it would seem logical that, if VTS is a roaring success (excuse pun!), especially from LHF point of view, it may go a long way to softening attitudes and policies with regards to Flying preservations, especially with the DA’s and maybe CAA, who knows? if it works out for a Vulcan, it could work for a shack or a Bucc.

As for displaying her at Duxford (or wherever) when she finally runs out of life, how many of the people who willsee her willknow that there is no operational armaments system or no 1960’s nav kit? Of the small percentage who do know, who will care? It is probably safe to assume that if she goes to Duxford she will be in better condition than the Vulcan there already, and hence a better bet for being kept in topline form. (although having seen what has happened to other aircraft that have flown in there, that may be too much to ask!)

Are you being serious the Vulcan at Duxford XJ824 is in very very good condition and while XH558 will of course be the best preserved example of the Vulcan in the world that does not justify getting rid of 824 as it is a brilliant example and is mostly undercover so is going to last loads longer than any Vulcan kept outside all the time.

Its also not a sensible option to put 2 Vulcan’s indoors at Duxford when their are so many historic aircraft stuck outside and I imagine their still will be in 15 years time or whatever.

The obvious solution is to preserve 558 undercover at a location that has no other Vulcan on site ie Brunty or what about Elevington maybe inside with the Victor I’m sure over the next 15 years a fundraiser campaign could enable the construction of said hanger up at elvingtoon.

In many ways this would be an excellent idea as their could be a proper V Force exhibition with 2 ground running examples and HLF would I hope find this an ideal solution.

Bruce,

I think that in this instance it is the specific aircraft, not just a representative of a type, that is being preserved. Thus, 558 should, once retired from flying, be kept in whatever state she last flew in. That in itself is a point of historical interest. An d i’ll stand by my statment that the majority of people won’t actually know what the damn thing is unless there is a board in front of it stating what it is.

My own view is that aircraft should be in the air, and if by removing various bits of kit that are superfluous to the current operation we can simplify maintenance and keep them airborne for longer, then so much the better. Likewise, I don’t think object to non military paint schemes on former military jets (but that’s a WHOLE different thread!)

As for displaying her at Duxford (or wherever) when she finally runs out of life, how many of the people who willsee her willknow that there is no operational armaments system or no 1960’s nav kit? Of the small percentage who do know, who will care? It is probably safe to assume that if she goes to Duxford she will be in better condition than the Vulcan there already, and hence a better bet for being kept in topline form. (although having seen what has happened to other aircraft that have flown in there, that may be too much to ask!)

Dees,

You miss the point; Strictly speaking, any preserved aeroplane should be recognised as being a historical document; i.e. it should be capable of being used for reference in its own right. Whilst the outside would, to all intents and purposes be identical to the other aircraft, any removal of redundant systems would make it unrepresentative as a type.

Clearly, many, many examples of preserved aircraft have parts missing, and are not strictly representative of their service life, but where there is a choice, I know which one I would prefer!

Bruce

Don’t see any need to drop other items to pay for the Vulc – the additional revenue from the larger crowds would pay for it I would have thought.

I think I’d look carefully at that statement.

It would seem to me that the vast majority of people who know what a Vulcan is and would be prepared to travel to an air show to see one are people like us, who would probably be going already.

To Joe Public it is just another obsolete jet.

And even for we enthusiasts the show will pall. Just look how bored many of us are with the Red Arrows. A display which in all honesty can only be described as superb entertainment.

It is difficult to see how the Vulcan can possibly increase air show crowds by any significant amount consistently.

Moggy

Here’s another thought – how’s about putting all the money allocated to the VTS into getting the TRS2 back into the air! Any takers??

David, The servicing requirements are likely to be less. If you take out all the redundant systems, as Damien said, then the requirement to service those systems goes away. So, no armaments, cabin press (maybe), some nav and radio kit may be removed (GPS stuff in its place), etc. I would assume that the aircraft will be serviced iaw the APs, which will give a servicing requirement based on both flying hours and calender time. I will guarantee that the aircraft will not rack up as many flying hours as an in-service aeroplane, and hence will be serviced more regularly per flying hour. Hence things like NDT inspections will be effectively done more frequently. It may be that the VTS may want to do NDT Checks more often, given tha nature of the airframe, but I can’t really comment on that, as I am not ‘in the know’

However, the aircraft is likely to be limited to something below its MAR limitations, and hence will not generate fatigue counts at the same rate as a jet flown to the full MAR limits.

As for displaying her at Duxford (or wherever) when she finally runs out of life, how many of the people who willsee her willknow that there is no operational armaments system or no 1960’s nav kit? Of the small percentage who do know, who will care? It is probably safe to assume that if she goes to Duxford she will be in better condition than the Vulcan there already, and hence a better bet for being kept in topline form. (although having seen what has happened to other aircraft that have flown in there, that may be too much to ask!)

Damien – I can dispell the notion that servicing requirements will be less. The aircraft is clearly coming to the end of her flying life and that means that NDT inspections will very much be on the up . If air display crowds want anything more than a very simple fly by followed by some sedate manouvers they are going to have to pay for it because the fatigue life will disappear rapidly
and that will hae a dramatic effect on her flying life.
The simple facts are that the machine is old and as parts wear out or suffer fatigue/corrosion they will need to be replaced. I have been in the situation of servicing some of the RAF’s older aircraft and indeed it’s newest . The older they are the more man hour intensive they are.
As for deleting many redundant systems doesn’t that mean in reality
that when the time comes for her to be retired to Duxford she is going to be
a hybrid Vulcan ? Surely if they delete all the weapons/ecm systems there is little point in displaying her at the IWM . The present Vulcan is virtually stock ex RAF – I know which one I would plough my limited resources into!

I can’t remember where or when I saw it but I read that operating costs weren’t expected to be a problem. A lot of people/organisations appeared to be ready to support an airworthy Vulcan, but weren’t prepared to fund the overhaul.

As the UK’s most missed and fondly remembered airshow act even after 11 years of absence, I should think most organisers would be willing to pay a fair amount given that they’d have one act absolutely guaranteed to cause them traffic nightmares and an absolutely heaving crowdline…!

What is a “fair” amount,does this mean that something else would be dropped to make way for the costs of hiring the Vulcan.
As for heaving crowdlines ,Duxford could’nt handle anymore ,probably the same with many other displays.
There are fewer large displays now ,people have less choice,overcrowding can only get worse. 🙁

The actual fund raising bit is actually the easiest bit! The operation of a machine like a Vulcan in private hands is going to be a massive undertaking.
It will require a large amount of crew training and continuation training. A dedicated groundcrew who will be able to travel to wherever she displays.
Whilst in military service she was effectively a weapons system – the fact that she will be benign doesn’t mean that her servicing requirements will be any less. It cannot be a case that she carries snags – every flight has to be perfectly planned to the finite detail.
The operation of the Vulcan in her last days by the RAF was supported by a virtually unending supply of qualified air and ground crew . The aircraft itself isn’t the most complex bit -the human interaction is often the bit that makes things go wrong.It must be supported by a core of well trained and motivated staff . Lastly the crew need to be willing and able to use the escape systems if things go wrong – it’s a case that pilots have tried to save aircraft because of their rarity or value and given their lives doing so.

Believe that if you will. It’ll be like the government policy on gradeI listed buildings- you are not allowed to change anything about it let alone demolish it, the government needs the space for new (unnecessary) offices down it comes

Just think back to when a new motorway (M11)was built through Cambridgeshire,carved the end off a historic and active airfield without a second thought. No chance of re directing it,remember the uproar

On the subject of XH558 i wonder how much it will cost to book it for a display slot,i’d love to see it fly but with costs of running a WW2 fighter or Sally B,and the MOD talking about disbanding the Red Arrows because of budgets and costs,i cant see to many organisers being able to afford to book it.
Hopefully i’ll be proved wrong.

Steve

Actually, hands up here because I have misread:

which means that when the partnership funding is in place

Which on reflection means nothing has changed.

I’m sorry to have caused such an unfounded fuss.

🙁 🙁 🙁

the Heritage Lottery Fund (HLF) have agreed the grant to VTS

I don’t see anything “ambiguous” in that statement.

😮 I wonder what the insurance and fuel costs will be just to get her airbourne for a season,i bet you don’t get alot of change from that £500,000.
I can’t wait to see her fly again but i do wonder whether the money may have been better spent giving stuff such as B17 “Sally B ” ,Lancaster “Just Jane” and other good causes a helping hand as “living” memorials to the people that fought and died.
Lets hope it all works out ok and the Vulcan doesn’t stumble at some future hurdle,at least it “may” set a precident for other aviation projects in the future static or otherwise.

I have always been sceptical on the desireability of returning a Vulcan to flight condition, and the desireability of throwing lottery funding at it. The misleading press releases of old have not helped my scepticism at all.

Reading between the lines, though, it does look as if progress is being made; its just frustrating that the press releases are not more straightforward. Would it really hurt to just say that the lottery have given them enough money to move ahead? It would save a lot of speculation!

Bruce

White while looking nice would have been a bitch to phpotograph correctly though. A nice challenge really. Shame.