Y2K Spitfire – Sold or Given Away?!

Wheres the pills?

Thanks.Actually like the old web pages.The volunteers have done fantastic work on her to get her up to this stage.Please give us more PICS!!!:D
Inventory:eek:..Nurse where,s my medication??Nearly finished a 6 month one of our project…Oh the pain,the pain.

Update for Y2K Spitfire

Thanks for asking for the update, sometimes we get too wrapped up in “doing” and we neglect our “telling”. Lots to report; we now have three full time AME’s plus a couple of Volunteers working hard on and around her, and we’ve spent a couple hundred thousand bucks so far for parts and materials. Her TC number will be Y-GYQQ (The Comox identifier). We had to take a few steps back to “certify” all previous work and we encountered a few unexpected problems, nothing too serious, tho’, just time-consuming. Getting the paperwork and inventory up to scratch was a ball-buster, but necessary. The Merlin 63 has gone to Factory 51 for overhaul, the Prop is being sourced, the engine mount was shipped out for mods, and we are re-working the fuel tank. All of our instruments pretty much dissapeared but we have some good contacts in the UK who are helping us with those. We are sourcing the engine piping etc now. The Wings are coming along fine in the UK, pretty much on schedule, we hope to see them next year, over here. So we are looking forward to lots of progress this year; thank God for the steady hand of VWoC at the tiller, none of this would have been possible without them, they have been superb with technical help and input. We are trying to get our old web page ported over to the professionally-run VWoC site, so we can provide updates that way. Keep tuned!!:D

Terry

Any updates guys?

right on dave. you tell ’em. i’d like to see this all fired up again so i don’t miss it this time. if i had seen this coming it would be me chaining myself to the fence. what a load of crap this is! we need to unite and get a lawyer and get this thing turned around. start our own fund for wings. i’d freeze everything if i had the power and woc can get a refund or something.

I don’t think either, slugging it out on here will determine it either way, each has their own point of view, and the aggrieved points have been made, sadly I doubt this kind of thing will not happen again, although as stated the future of the Spitfire is assured, perhaps a further assurance of more than 1 season can be offered to the original restorers who have in all fairness invested their time and money into it

However I feel generally, there is an attitude today of as long as a Spitfire flies again nothing else matters, which tends to rub people up the wrong way.

Gentlemen

I think it is team we put this issue to rest.
Everyone agrees that the Y2K volunteers were dedicated and did an excellent job bringing the Spitfire to it’s present state.
However, there are various opinions about what is expected of volunteers and how many rights they have while working on an owners project. That should be the subject of another thread.
The volunteers are and should be proud of their role in his a/c ‘s life.
Without them this project may have never gone a far as it has.
Now a new stage of the Spit’s life has started and it is a very positive move for the future of the a/c.
As I have stated earlier, the a/c will now be restored at a much faster pace and at an even higher quality of workmanship and in a much more stable environment financially.
Hashing over what could have been is not constructive in any way.
As I have stated before, we should be happy that the a group has come forward to carry on the restoration and keep the a/c in Canada.
Lets just look forward to the day that it once again flies and can be seen by the Canadian public.
The Spitfire will be a symbol of our wartime contribution and a tribute to all aircrew that were involved. Lets just celebrate that and put the rest behind us. If not for each other lets do it for the veterans.
After all, one of the main reasons we selflessly donate our time to restore these a/c is as a tribute to them….isn’t it?

Long may she fly in Canada

The contract for the wings has been given to Ralph Hull at Hull Aero.

The Spitfire was offered to all other museums in Canada, prior to being sold to Vintage Wings. This was done to give other museums an opportunity to bid if they wanted to. It also gave the process validity it needed for the rest of the museum community.
It has been no secret for a number of years that options for the project were being looked at by both the Comox Museum and Airforce Heritage who ultimately are responsible for all Airforce museums.
The lack of wings and the associated costs ($600,000+) in obtaining them has always been an issue with this project and until it was addressed the project was always going to be a non-starter.
When you rebuilding a flyable Spitfire, money is always going to be an issue, ultimately it is the reason why VWoC can use its resources to finish the job.

MRP

Thanks Fleet for putting it out there; the small but vocal group of protesters have not succeeded in sabotaging this great initiative and partnership, despite repeated efforts. They succeeded this past week in convincing a heretofore reputable military reporter in Ottawa, David Pugliese, to re-hash their story, with old points that we had addressed even in this forum, and it raised the same questions from the Aviation community that their previous writings have. That is, just what, exactly, is it that they want? They got their names in a national paper, to be sure,but to what end? The few calls we got were calls of mild curiosity, and several statements that these folks don’t really seem to understand the national character of this project, and how excited the rest of Canada is to be a part of it. It did have the effect of galvanizing National support groups, however, so it wasn’t totally wasted. I hadn’t thought of it this way before but one caller mentioned that it seemed kind of selfish of these folks to want to keep this national treasure in Comox, when many other Canadians could enjoy her and see part of our heritage and history for themselves. Especially since it was apparent to all that she could never fly here. A reasonable person would have thought the partnership would have brought great joy to them, since it allowed the achievement of the goals they had sought for so long. Had they actually been around the project in its declining years, they might have seen the possibilities, but that was not to be. Unfortunately with their efforts and comments they may actually have brought discredit to Volunteerism in general, which is so sad. Like you, I have given thousands of hours and dollars in these causes, without a thought of “what will we get out of this?” or ” how will this benefit us or the organization?” Volunteers should always give freely and without prejudice or expectation to these projects that they love, and when others pick up the baton and run with it, we should be cheering them on, not throwing spiked strips on the road.

The partnership between DND and WVoC regarding Y2K is secure and proceeding, and follows in the footsteps of the Hawk 1 (F86) projects and the P40. We can only thank our lucky stars that there are organizations out there like VWoC or our aviation heritage in Canada would be in very sorry shape. Our Government has many more pressing priorities. A contract has been signed with a UK contractor to produce our Wings and Y2K will fly over the Comox Valley some time in 2011. It will be a joyous occasion for all, and yes, all of those, I repeat, all of those who contributed to this epic event, will be invited to see her fly with many of her sister airplanes who are coming for the event. I really sincerely hope all who contributed will come. They deserve to see what they helped create finally come to fruition. That offer, by the way, has always been out there, as has the offer for them to come down to the Hangar and chat, and see if there is anything that needs doing. So far, nothing but poison pens. The smoke from their bridges stings my eyes. What a shame it had to turn out that way, it could have been so much nicer and less stressful.

Mr. Pugliese will be somewhat distressed to find out that he is now disreputable. It seems that I myself suffer from a variety of disorders, including selfishness, media attention deficit disorder, and a provincial attitude. To top it off I have given “volunteering” a bad name.

You will be greatly disappointed to learn that in fact I turned down a TV interview after the Ottawa Citizen story, and also that year over year my wife and I donate thousands of dollars to local organizations and various charities (and no, we don’t ask for anything in return).

As for what we want – I’m not sure what it is you don’t understand about this. It has been clearly stated in a number of requests to the museum, all of which have been denied because the information was “confidential”. All we hear is a steady stream of insults and condescending BS.

Dave Mcleod
Former Y2K Spitfire Volunteer

Reply to Fleet

While I have sympathy for the Y2K volunteers, they seem slightly misguided about what volunteering is.
I spent many years of my teen years volunteering to restore vintage a/c and never once expected a reward , an airplane ride etc. ( and yea I put some of my own money into volunteering ie membership fees, paint , tools etc)
My reward ? the chance and honor to actually work on some rare and interesting a/c.
The reality is the volunteers were working on an a/c owned by the military not them. There were no contacts or agreements made about it’s future that I heard of.
While I am sure their work was excellent, funding and the rate at which the restoration was going were definitely against them.
The Spitfire being Military owned is a National treasure not provincial.
We should be thankful that an organization has come along that will keep the a/c in Canada and see this restoration thru both quickly and with much better resources and quality of workmanship.
Whether or not the price paid was one dollar or 1 million is unimportant as V W of C will spend huge amounts of it’s own money putting the a/c back in the air so that Canadians can enjoy it. Not to mention many veterans out west that will hopefully get to see a Spitfire one more time in their twilight years once it tours the area as promised.
The positives of this deal far outweigh the negatives being brought up by a small handfull of volunteers. if they are really dedicated to returning this a/c to the air , then they should be thankful for the help this a/c restoration is receiving.
Afterall many of them complained about the lack of funding for years and now the funding has arrived.
So lets all look forward to the day the Canadian people get a chance to see another Spitfire fly over our country as a tribute to the men and woman that maintained and flew them.
The complaining and bickering does nothing but belittle their contributions.

Permit me to acquaint you with a few facts surrounding the issue:

Contrary to statements made by the Museum and VW, it is not just a “few people” who have raised objections to the sale and want answers and transparency, it includes most of the former volunteers and many members of the public. We want to know why the Museum collected hundreds of thousands of dollars in charitable donations for 8 years from the local public and then gave the project away to a private foundation in Quebec. Some former donors have requested a return of monies contributed to the project. One individual called one of us up in a rage claiming he was going to chain himself to the gates of CFB Comox until he got some answers.

Over an 8 year period, the (now former) volunteers in question each have several thousand hours and thousands of dollars of their own money invested in the Y2K project. This constitutes somewhat more than a few hours of time and some paint and tools. In several instances volunteers contributed money out of their own pockets to pay for the project engineer’s contract renewal. Other than the engineer the volunteers were the “guts” of the project.

None of us has ever asked to be rewarded or financially reimbursed. We were happy to participate in the restoration of a legendary aircraft as part of the Comox Airforce Museum. Our “reward” for the aforementioned years of contribution was was to be told that the project had been “sold” to Vintage Wings without engaging us in any way in the decision process. The represents an appalling disregard for the efforts of the volunteers. At one point we were told by Museum officials that the museum would receive a “large donation” from VW as fair value for the project. This was acceptable to us as the museum has a number of other projects that could benefit from funding. However since then, the Museum has refused to provide any further details of the transaction, citing “confidentiality” issues. As we have recently found out, the “large donation” was in fact a myth and the project was given away. None of us ever had any illusions about who owned the aircraft or the possibility of it being sold, however the aircraft was not military surplus and was not paid for by the Canadian Air Force. It was acquired with and funded by (mostly local) public and private donations. This implies a higher level of consultation and transparency with regard to disposal, as opposed to say, the Base Commander deciding one day to transfer a Hercules to Trenton.

None of us has anything against Vintage Wings as an organization – we all admire the work that they do, however, we don’t understand why their representatives continue to publish factually incorrect information in the media. Comments by VW in the recent Ottawa Citizen about dissension among the volunteers are completely false, as is the assertion that VW representatives made trips to Comox to “address our concerns”. Only one of the volunteers has ever met anyone from Vintage Wings, and that was on a single occasion. The Museum (and VW) have constantly attempted to minimize the value of the project, presumably to justify the giveaway. What they don’t mention is that 6 years ago the Museum was offered $250,000 for the project which at that time consisted of a partially completed fuselage. Currently the fuselage is mostly complete as is the tail section, including rudder and horizontal stabilizer. The project also has a large number of valuable spares including an engine (which needs a rebuild), prop hub, landing gear, instruments, etc. We also found the VW comments about “national attention” offensive, as would many people who live outside of central Canada. Remarks like this are typical of someone who’s vision of Canada is what they can see from the CN tower (or in this case Gatineau) on a clear day.

The Comox Air Force Museum and VW could have avoided the negative publicity surrounding the entire incident by extending due courtesy to all of the project stakeholders, instead of treating us with contempt by excluding us from the process, ignoring our requests for information, and insulting us in the media. The entire episode has left a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of residents of Vancouver Island who supported the project. We as “misguided” volunteers will continue to “complain and bicker” until we get some basic answers regarding the sale of Y2K, such as:

-Why a Museum that survives hand-to-mouth on the proceeds of Bingo games and public donations would give away a $500,000+ asset.

-Why the Museum would dispose of their biggest draw – we had visitors from all over the world come to see the project (and who would also stop in at the museum).

Going to the media appears to be the only way to accomplish this. In part this has already been successful – the Ottawa Citizen article revealed that the aircraft was sold for 1$, which has never been publicly admitted by VW and the Comox Airforce Museum (for obvious reasons).

Dave Mcleod
Former Y2K Spitfire Volunteer

Now that should go on a brass plate somewhere…

Nobody really owns these a/c , we are mere custodians of them.

How about wings?Are you going to do it in house or are they to be built elsewhere?

I have heard that a Group in England have been contractd to build the wings.
Sorry , not sure just who.
Perhaps another Forum member will be able to tell us.

How about wings?Are you going to do it in house or are they to be built elsewhere?

Thanks Fleet for putting it out there.

Pontius

You are quite welcomed
I agree with all aspects of your comments regarding VWC.
Last year I hired some of their a/c and pilots for a movie I was involved in.
This group is nothing but professional in all aspects. Please remember me to Mike Potter ,Rob Erdos and Dave Hadfield. They know who I am.
The Spitfire had a wonderful home in Comox and in now going to an even better establishment in order to live again.
From what I see, VWC does things they way we all dream a Vintage a/c group should be operated. As I have previously stated , they are fast becoming if not all ready the premier Vintage/ Warbird group in Canada. Equal if better than the best world wide.
Not to diminish the efforts of the many other great groups in Canada, it’s just that VWC have raised the bar.

Good luck with the Spit and I look forward to seeing her fly

Fleet16b

Thanks, Mark for the good wishes, we are not starting from scratch, however. The fuselage and rear empennage are virtually complete, the engine bearer is done, and we are beginning work on the front cowlings soon. Our very competent engineer tells us he needs 24 months to do it all. The engine will go out for overhaul, we have most of the other parts we need and a line on some props. All that said, we recognize that we are stretching it for 2011, but we work best under pressure! I’m picking Battle Of Britain Sunday 2011 for a flight!:eek:

History tells us that that is an extremely aggressive time scale.

Good luck. 🙂

Mark

Yes, we call it the “WTF” factor, and 2.5 is about right. If my problems are logistical or engineering I have the weight and support of the incredibly talented VWoC group to draw on and I don’t anticipate financial problems at this point. I’m sure something is lurking in the weeds to challenge us, it always is, but if this was easy anybody could do it, right? 🙂

A contract has been signed with a UK contractor to produce our Wings and Y2K will fly over the Comox Valley some time in 2011.

🙂

…presumably the x2.4 ‘F’ factor has not been baked in?

Mark

Y2K Partnership

Thanks Fleet for putting it out there; the small but vocal group of protesters have not succeeded in sabotaging this great initiative and partnership, despite repeated efforts. They succeeded this past week in convincing a heretofore reputable military reporter in Ottawa, David Pugliese, to re-hash their story, with old points that we had addressed even in this forum, and it raised the same questions from the Aviation community that their previous writings have. That is, just what, exactly, is it that they want? They got their names in a national paper, to be sure,but to what end? The few calls we got were calls of mild curiosity, and several statements that these folks don’t really seem to understand the national character of this project, and how excited the rest of Canada is to be a part of it. It did have the effect of galvanizing National support groups, however, so it wasn’t totally wasted. I hadn’t thought of it this way before but one caller mentioned that it seemed kind of selfish of these folks to want to keep this national treasure in Comox, when many other Canadians could enjoy her and see part of our heritage and history for themselves. Especially since it was apparent to all that she could never fly here. A reasonable person would have thought the partnership would have brought great joy to them, since it allowed the achievement of the goals they had sought for so long. Had they actually been around the project in its declining years, they might have seen the possibilities, but that was not to be. Unfortunately with their efforts and comments they may actually have brought discredit to Volunteerism in general, which is so sad. Like you, I have given thousands of hours and dollars in these causes, without a thought of “what will we get out of this?” or ” how will this benefit us or the organization?” Volunteers should always give freely and without prejudice or expectation to these projects that they love, and when others pick up the baton and run with it, we should be cheering them on, not throwing spiked strips on the road.

The partnership between DND and WVoC regarding Y2K is secure and proceeding, and follows in the footsteps of the Hawk 1 (F86) projects and the P40. We can only thank our lucky stars that there are organizations out there like VWoC or our aviation heritage in Canada would be in very sorry shape. Our Government has many more pressing priorities. A contract has been signed with a UK contractor to produce our Wings and Y2K will fly over the Comox Valley some time in 2011. It will be a joyous occasion for all, and yes, all of those, I repeat, all of those who contributed to this epic event, will be invited to see her fly with many of her sister airplanes who are coming for the event. I really sincerely hope all who contributed will come. They deserve to see what they helped create finally come to fruition. That offer, by the way, has always been out there, as has the offer for them to come down to the Hangar and chat, and see if there is anything that needs doing. So far, nothing but poison pens. The smoke from their bridges stings my eyes. What a shame it had to turn out that way, it could have been so much nicer and less stressful.

Vintage aviation is an all consuming obsession 😀

You sound like my wife :D:D

I didn’t know about the fundraising campaign – up until you mentioned that I was prepared to post about how Jean’s aircraft is very important to NZ history rather than that of the UK. I can’t think of any other long-distance aircraft preserved in a nation other than that of the crew’s birth. The Southern Cross, Spirit of St Louis, Alcock and Brown’s Vimy, the Ross Bros Vimy, Earhart and Post’s Vegas, Henshaw’s Mew Gull, Grosvenor House etc etc. That being said, I’d give anything for G-ADPR to be flying and replaced at Auckland International with a replica.

Shuttleworth had a Pr.XI?

Back on topic, I agree with Fleet’s comments wholeheartedly (and, as I have never even been to Canada and the closest to VWoC I’ve been is visiting their website, you can rest assured I have no connection with them). It sounds like VWoC are the best bet for this aeroplane’s FLYING future. I’m sure that they don’t intend for it to fly solely at Gatineau, and I wouldn’t be surprised at all to see her back in the valley at various times.