Yak-1 and Yak-7 Question

I think the fin in the water story is really Jungman/Jungmeister in Algers harbour after the war. IIRC flown by a guy from Portugal. Happy to be corrected, as always!

I thought it was a French pilot, after the war. I worked for Kermit Weeks when he bought his Jungmeister, and remember that a manual that came with it had that pilot’s name hand written on the cover, but can’t remember what the name was…

On topic, somewhat, this Yak 7 (converted 11 of course, with Allison engine) is now based at our local airport, undergoing some maintenance before flying again:

The display pilot for the Normandie niemen was MARCHI, he’s the one that performed all the public performances for the squadron returning from germany, then in france after the war. Never heard about the fin in water …anyway i will ask to one of them soon if you want .

I think the fin in the water story is really Jungman/Jungmeister in Algers harbour after the war. IIRC flown by a guy from Portugal. Happy to be corrected, as always!

1930s, IIRC.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=603233&postcount=13

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=604257&postcount=33

Going to look up my reference for his name. 😮

I asked the ‘fin in water’ question about 18 months ago on here http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=73221
Could it have been Capt Josef Risso ??

cheers baz

I think the fin in the water story is really Jungman/Jungmeister in Algers harbour after the war. IIRC flown by a guy from Portugal. Happy to be corrected, as always!

That story doesn’t ring any bell…i really don’t think this comes from the Normandie !!! There are a lot of stories during the three years they spent on the eastern front but never heard about that, despite the fact i have a lot about that subject…
I could tell you what the ace Marcel Albert told me about the yak …he just found that the flight controls were the best you could find in that era, he flew Spitfires in 1941 , yaks during the war and also FW190 after the war, and just found the yaks absolutely superb…He is really the greatest man i know …
Concerning yak questions, well i can tell you the exact duration of their missions, so when people say that Yak3 didn’t have the endurance of the yak 9 that is true if you look at the logbook, on yak 1 and 9 you could have 1h30 minutes missions (90% of them were around 55 minutes) , and on the yak3 the maximpum they did was 1H10 flying …anyway Marcel Albert one day downed two aircrafts during a 20 minutes flight !! I did many 20 minutes flights …and it is hard to imagine how he felt just after this flight ..sadly he forgot a lot about this period..

During operations of the french NORMANDIE NIEMEN, all the pilots trained on the Yak7 dual controls to get used to pneumatic systems and performances, usually the first batch got about 3 hours on the yak7 (december 1942), then during the war pilots got instruction before transitioning to yak1 or 9 or 3 depending which year they joined the “Normandie” .
From February 1943 they were equiped with YAK1 , flights were less than 1 hour, but sometimes they flew around 1h30 maximum,
from July 1943 they got on the yak9 and duration of mission flights were identical , the 9 was the yak that was the used during the longest period of war for the french pilots.
Around the 19th august 1944 they got the yak3 and just experienced all the improvments of the beast.

Not a Yak specific question…rather a Normandie Niemens question…I seem to remember many years ago reading about one of the NN pilots whos ‘party trick’ was to fly inverted over water with the ‘top’ of his a/c fin actually in the water… anybody have a photo of this ?? am i remembering correctly ??

cheers baz

During operations of the french NORMANDIE NIEMEN, all the pilots trained on the Yak7 dual controls to get used to pneumatic systems and performances, usually the first batch got about 3 hours on the yak7 (december 1942), then during the war pilots got instruction before transitioning to yak1 or 9 or 3 depending which year they joined the “Normandie” .
From February 1943 they were equiped with YAK1 , flights were less than 1 hour, but sometimes they flew around 1h30 maximum,
from July 1943 they got on the yak9 and duration of mission flights were identical , the 9 was the yak that was the used during the longest period of war for the french pilots.
Around the 19th august 1944 they got the yak3 and just experienced all the improvments of the beast.

Interesting thoughts again. It seems there may be no simple answer for my question, and if that’s the case then alright. I just thought I’d bring it up, as Soviet aircraft aren’t often discussed on this forum. I will say that my favorite Soviet aircraft from that time, as great as the Yak’s were, is the MiG-3. I find it a very pleasing airplane to look at, and I find it a rather interesting airplane to read about despite the limited numbers (relatively speaking) that were built.

Seems to be a well thought out argument. I’m inclined to go along with it. That’s the problem though, Data on Soviet aviation is abundant but none of it actually covers questions like that.

I would not tend to agree 100% with that observation, actually. Most of the questions of this nature regarding Soviet aviation manufacture decisions during the War (and thereabouts) have been sussed out. Usually when one encounters a problem surrounded by impenetrable obscurity, invariably the question will relate to A.S. Yakovlev. This is no doubt so as he was not only the director of a very substantial aviation concern, but also simultaneously in the Directorate of the USSR’s Ministry for Aviation (NKAP). The term “complex” often fails to do proper justice to some of these machinations….

So far as the various Yak variants are concerned, the matter is similar to reports from most WW2 era veterans. They will invariably tell you that the version they operated was the best! That is pretty typical, really.

Speaking technically, there were indeed notable differences. No matter how fine was the Yak-1’s handling, the Yak-7 was better still (it had larger tail/stab surfaces, for example). It was heavier than the -1, thus slower and with inferior climb, but the exemplary handling, heavier armament (in the -7B version and onwards) and superlative gun platform properties were preferred by some pilots.

It is very difficult to compare the Yak-3 to the -9 as they were very different types of fighters. The -3 was developed strictly for the air superiority role, and thus featured a short operational range (for example). The family of Yak-9s were developed prodigiously, from a basic frontal fighter of very fine qualities to an anti-tank version with a 37 mm then 45 mm cannon (-T, -K), long-range escort machines (-D, -DD), a bomber version (-B), and even rationalised versions which were something like a ‘medium range’ aircraft (-M). The Yak-9U somewhat closed the loop of this apparent dichotomy of development, and was primarily an interceptor, much more like the Yak-3.

Had there been no Yak-7, it is my view that the family of Yak-9 fighters (had they come to pass) would not have been developed so broadly. I reckon the family would have headed for the Yak-3 and -9U much more directly.

Well, just my own opinion, of course….

Very interesting train of thought, and what appears to be a well thought out argument. I wonder what the various pilots who flew them different versions thought of them. I wonder if the Yak-7 was more popular than the -1 and vice versa (same goes for the Yak-9 vs. the Yak-3).

Seems to be a well thought out argument. I’m inclined to go along with it. That’s the problem though, Data on Soviet aviation is abundant but none of it actually covers questions like that.

An outstanding and complicated question, Phantom. The fact is that we do not really know for what reason the Yak-7 developed as such a major programme; neither does Yakovlev explain this decision in any comprehensive way in his personal papers. If you want, I’ll give you my own opinion on the matter (and no matter how well researched, it is only an opinion).

What became the Yak-7 fighter started life as a an advanced trainer based on the Yak-1, this the UTI-26 (and subsequently the Yak-7UTI). Production of this aircraft carried on right through the war, and it was an enormously successful machine for this role.

However, in the atmosphere of late 1941 (e.g. Nazis advancing on Moscow, etc), fighter aircraft were a priority (obviously), and it was found to be the case that a fighter version of the Yak-7UTI could be put into manufacture essentially at once. This was regarded as a better employment of production resources at the time, especially noting that the flight behaviour of the Yak-1 was so good that no advanced training routine was usually required to transition to this type. At the same time, there was a titanic feud under way between S. Lavochkin and A. Yakovlev for dominance in the Soviet fighter aviation arena, with both designers (and their bureaux) attempting to monopolise air force contracts (rather in the way Polikarpov had done in the 1930s) via their own products. In light of both observations, it was hugely convenient for Yakovlev that a second Yak fighter could be set into production at this moment.

The plan nearly came off. Had a better, radial engined, solution not been found for the LaGG-3 fighter (becoming the La-5), it is at least possible that Yakovlev might have succeeded in monopolising fighter production to his aircraft in 1942.

In the event, the Yak-7 turned out to be an outstanding fighter aircraft. It also allowed for a certain split in the direction of development by Yakovlev of his fighters, with the Yak-7 evolving into the Yak-9 family of machines (these regarded by the air force as ‘frontal’ fighters– suited for escort and support duties), and the -1 thence to the Yak-3 (these seen to be purely ‘air superiority’ types). Had the Yak-7 not existed, it is difficult to see where this functional dichotomy– which was so very successful– might have come from.

Well, needs of the moment and internecine competition– that was basically the scenario in my view. You can read more on this topic in Soviet Air Force Fighter Colours (Ian Allen Press), pp. 144-147.