Yak Identification

Is the general agreement here that the North Korean aircraft in the shoot down photo is a Yak-11?  Then, it begs the question, what was a slow, lightly-armed Yak-11 trainer doing with two world class fighters?  Thank you. 

QUOTE=Kurlan Naiskos
“1. the first one looks like artwork,which isn’t always technically accurate.
the second one is probably an update or modernization along with the restoration.

2. it seems that Yak-9P’s 01-153-01 through 01-153-29 had this mixed-construction and the the remaining 772 Yak-9P’s were all-metal.
so this certainly confirms the Mixed-construction Yak’s in your “docs”
the NKAF recieved 79 Yak-9’s and they were mostly “P”s

3. that is more likely the La-11 as this planes were also in the Korean War and would have been a closer match for the Mustangs and Corsairs.”

1. OK the ones I provided aren’t proof Yak-11’s had radio masts, but your counter arguments aren’t proof none did. Also those are just quick web examples, the article on postwar Yak operations in the Ukrainian mag Aviatsiya y Vremya No.3 2004 has both period photo’s (1950’s Egyptian ones) and a line drawing of Yak-11 with the radio mast.

2. That’s interesting on early Yak-9P’s but the early fighters in the KPAFAC were ones transferred from VVS units based in NK in late ’40’s and said to be 1944-45 production, so not necessarily Yak-9P’s at all. 79 is a number in some Russian sources for Yak-9 strength or transfers or just -9P’s to NK but other sources disagree, not clear.

3. There’s no indication the NK’s had any Lavochkins in June 1950. Both Russian and Chinese sources mention them (La-9’s, the Soviets themselves used -11’s as nightfighters from mid 1951 and perhaps NK’s got them later) in the NK OOB in early 1951, but I’ve never seen an earlier reference. The NK Il-10 pilot who defected prewar in April 1950 and one captured a few days after that photo, right at the beginning of the war, gave detailed OOB generally similar to what’s seen in Russian sources (numbers at the low end of those in Russian sources, and the two didn’t quite agree with each other): also no Lavochkins.

Joe

Yak mis-identification

I don’t know what you are using for “sources” but they are very wrong.

the Yak-1 had a fixed tail wheel
the Yak-1b (1943 “bubbletop”) had a retractable tailwheel.
the Yak-3 had a retractable one
early Yak-7’s had a fixed tailwheel (yak-7A,V,UTI and early B’s)
the Yak-9 had a retractable tailwheel.

although I realize there is a person standing in front “02”(foreground) there isn’t anybody in front of the aircraft in the mid-ground, and the doors for the tailwheel are there.(even if they are very tiny)

I would be interested in anthing you have on Yak’s in the Korean war.

I think it’s a Yak-3 or something, because the Yak-9P has a retractable tailwheel and the yak-3 doesn’t, but the Yak-1, Yak-7 and Yak-11 don’t have like the -9P a retractable tailwheel. It looks like the Yak fighters with inline engines (Klimov V-12). And the Yak on your picture looks like a single cockpit. So the yak would probably be a Yak-3 or an early Yak-9.

EDIT: I realised that I have some photo’s and an article about mustangs VS yaks in the korean war. The yaks that were flying there were Yak-9U’s. BUT, the Yak-9U’s DO have a retractable tailwheel and the Yak on your picture not, so it could be an old Yak they used for training or something for the newer Yaks. But I’m not sure.

Yak-9P or Yak-11?

“Well thanks for responding even after so long.”

I just recently found this forum, provided by a link from another aviation forum.
“the 55th anniversary of that photo, so it’s fitting we should revive the discussion”
historical disussions are appropriate at all times.
“I don’t think the radio mast is definitive. Below are two depictions of Yak-11’s with them, one a restoration but anyway it’s easy to find pictures of Yak-11’s with radio masts, so I don’t think we can rule it out based on that. “
the first one looks like artwork,which isn’t always technically accurate.
the second one is probably an update or modernization along with the restoration.
“many depictions of North Korean Yak-9P’s from 1950 also have them they have in addition a perspex cover over an RDF aerial in the fuselage, the outline of which can’t be seen in that picture.”
some of these planes had the covers replaced with plywood or simply painted over.
one other thing that I wonder about is the rear canopy section,notice how the Yak-11 has a large bulbous one and the Yak-9P has a smaller, more streamlined design?
this is also not evident in the photo so it cannot be identified by that.

I have to admit knowing less about the Yak-9U,S and P than I do about the WWII models so this will be a correction to my earlier post :o(after checking some sources)
“But besides (all metal) 9P’s the NK’s received some earlier composite (wood/metal) Yak-9’s ca. 1948-49, per original Soviet documents I came across since I posted this question, although the exact type of those is not given in the docs.”
the Yak-9U had wood-skinned wings and rear fuselage (and no mast)
the Yak-9S was only different in that it had the VYa-23mm cannon instead of the usual 20mm SHVak cannon.( only two prototypes were built and I haven’t seen a photo of either one, so I can’t say for certain if they had masts)

it seems that Yak-9P’s 01-153-01 through 01-153-29 had this mixed-construction and the the remaining 772 Yak-9P’s were all-metal.
so this certainly confirms the Mixed-construction Yak’s in your “docs”
the NKAF recieved 79 Yak-9’s and they were mostly “P”s

“The F-82 pilots said all the a/c engaged in that combat were radials, and radial/in line mistake in combat ID is not so common.”

that is more likely the La-11 as this planes were also in the Korean War and would have been a closer match for the Mustangs and Corsairs.

I would be interested to know more about these soviet documents you have.
in the meantime here is a Yak-9P in Korea. notice it’s similarity to the photo at the top of the thread.
P.F.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=88294&stc=1

hello, I’m new here.

your confusion is understandable: let me illuminate you.

the Yak-11 (proper identification)was a radial engined trainer. period.
the fixed tail wheel is a red herring.
on Soviet aircraft of the period it was not at all uncommon to lock the wheel in the down position if it was malfunctioning or damaged.

what you should be looking at is the radio mast, it properly identifies this aircraft as a Yak-9P. (some did, some did not)
the Yak-9U does not have a radio mast and as far as I know did not see action in Korea.

allied observers were not familiar with the Yak-9U and Yak-9P so they assumed it was a new aircraft and mis-identified it as a Yak-11.

Well thanks for responding even after so long. Actually today (in this timezone it’s still the 27th) is the 55th anniversary of that photo, so it’s fitting we should revive the discussion.

But, I don’t think the radio mast is definitive. Below are two depictions of Yak-11’s with them, one a restoration but anyway it’s easy to find pictures of Yak-11’s with radio masts, so I don’t think we can rule it out based on that. OTOH while many depictions of North Korean Yak-9P’s from 1950 also have them they have in addition a perspex cover over an RDF aerial in the fuselage, the outline of which can’t be seen in that picture. But besides (all metal) 9P’s the NK’s received some earlier composite (wood/metal) Yak-9’s ca. 1948-49, per original Soviet documents I came across since I posted this question, although the exact type of those is not given in the docs. Same docs make clear Yak-11’s were transferred before the war (when I posted the question I wasn’t sure of that, though I knew the NK’s had them later on).

As for combat use of these trainers again it is surprising as I said above, but I don’t think we can rule it out just by asserting it. The F-82 pilots said all the a/c engaged in that combat were radials, and radial/in line mistake in combat ID is not so common.

In summary I lean more than before toward Yak-11, though very much open to further info.

Joe

hello, I’m new here.

your confusion is understandable: let me illuminate you.

the Yak-11 (proper identification)was a radial engined trainer. period.
the fixed tail wheel is a red herring.
on Soviet aircraft of the period it was not at all uncommon to lock the wheel in the down position if it was malfunctioning or damaged.

what you should be looking at is the radio mast, it properly identifies this aircraft as a Yak-9P. (some did, some did not)
the Yak-9U does not have a radio mast and as far as I know did not see action in Korea.

allied observers were not familiar with the Yak-9U and Yak-9P so they assumed it was a new aircraft and mis-identified it as a Yak-11.

Right, based on the supposed order of battle of the KPAFAC it would be a late Yak-9, a Yak-9P. But did any Yak-9P’s have non-retractable tail wheels? that’s the source of my puzzlement.

Joe

Over Korea the chances are it was a late Yak 9

Very interesting Joe, and I see your point. Armed Yak-11 trainers seem a pretty weak defense and a downright rediculous offense! Keep us informed as to your findings if you don’t mind. Best regards.

Chad,

This aircraft is usally described as the first, and is at least among the first three, aerial victories in the Korean War. F-82’s were flying CAP over Kimpo airfield for evacuations of neutrals June 27, 1950 (the US wasn’t formally involved yet). They were attacked by North Korean fighters raiding the field. The aircraft which scored this victory was hit in the tail by the NK a/c (photo’s show). The radar observer (who may have snapped the photo of the Yak with a handheld camera) reported his pilot ended on the tail of the NK flight leader. He believed he saw the pilot turn around and talk to a backseater before bailing out, though the “back seater” never did bail out. At least one NK airman was captured on the ground though not clear if from this a/c. He was a member of the NK fighter regiment (there was only one at the time) and gave its OOB as 30-odd Yak-9’s (Russian and defector sources said the inventory was larger, about twice that). Yak-11’s are by no means excluded as a type in NK service too though.

But an armed Yak-11 leading fighters on a counter air mission? The two other NK a/c claimed that day by the F-82’s are officially listed as La-7’s, a type no Russian or US intel source puts in the NK OOB (except later as a result of those claims). Many accounts assume they were Yaks too. Perhaps they were all Yak-11’s (radial like an La-7) converted for combat? Some accounts also as I mentioned assume this a/c was a Yak fighter conversion trainer (not a lower powered Yak-11 pure trainer on the same basic airframe). Strange all around. As usual for NK air force, we still can’t read serious books of theirs to find out exactly what happened from their perspective.

Joe

JoeB, is there some reason that you think it is not a Yak-11?

Great, thanks. That’s a Yak-9 in the middle? I don’t know though if I rearrange those to cut off at exactly the same point the -9’s oil cooler isn’t visible. So then it seems to come down to the tailwheel (barring exact measuring of dimensions which look the about the same among all to my eye).

So the other thing I was wondering was whether something like a bubble top Yak-7B was possible. According to Russian sources as I said the KPAFAC had just -9P’s (among fighters in June 1950, though possibly the -11’s too). But US sources say they did have -7’s (going back to an immediate prewar [April 1950] defector to the ROK who said they did at least initially in 1948). Not as specific as bubble top or razorback though, and I haven’t found a reference getting into detail like retractable tail wheel or not on Yak-7B bubble tops.

Joe

It’s a Yak-11.