Yesterday Channel – "Who Betrayed the Bomber Boys"

Very well said and presented AK, unfortunately the more simplistic version is the far easier one for most to believe in.

Re Churchill, renouncing Harris. The diaries of KGVI’s P/Sec, Sir Alan Lascelles were only recently published (delayed due to stuff about the Duke of Windsor) – King’s Counsellor, Weidenfeld. P.381: Jan.1946, New Year Honours: WSC irate with A.L, why Harris has no peerage. AL says he got MRAF – of more use to him than any peerage, and in (June,45 Birthday Honours) he had GCB at WSC’s recommendation.

There is a WSC quote after Dresden in the sense are we beasts…but: there are lots of WSC quotes, negative to the conduct of the War, ranging from rage at 100,000 mouths, useless in Singapore; and again in the Canal Zone; another about recovering assault gliders for further use. His job was to send young men out to die. One (of ours), each of most minutes throughout his Premiership. So I suggest he was entitled to lose his composure – at any time, about any thing. I doubt the lack of a Bombing Campaign medal was any act of distancing by him or his successor as PM. Crews got a general Theatre decoration; why further distinguish them from Coastal, Fighter, where to draw a line: ARP? Fire?…&tc. I suggest nobody gave a thought to Bomber Command other than as equal to all the other valiant boys in blue.

There is no logic to writing books such as Down Among the Dead Cities, presenting Dresden as a war crime: either all raids (by Land, Sea or Air) incurring collateral damage were criminal…or none were. Politicians of all hues tried, 1926-36, through the League of Nations, to cause aerial bombardment to be treated as CBW successfully was: (by almost everybody: ) outlawed. The useless types we deployed on 3/9/39 had been designed to League AUW constraints, which we chose to dump just in time to get on with Heavies for 1941 deployment. So, we are now into Deterrence theory and effect: if…we had built bigger, quicker, such that our rattling of Guarantees in 1938/39 to various inaccessible aliens, far away of which we know nothing, might have been credible, then…who knows? Maybe Hitler would have stopped, once Germanic folk had been welcomed into the Heimat (not recovered: Sudetenland had never been in Germany (Austria/Hungary), but hey, who cared?)

We will not undo the position of those evangels who reject Bomber Command. Best to ignore them.

(My parents did not unselect WSC in July,1945: they booted out his lot, who they blamed for getting us into the mess, and who were dragging their feet on domestic matters – this time a land fit for heroes to live in: what became the Welfare State).

Re 17

j jza80

It’s not slander. It is stupidity.

Re 5

Knifedgeturn

The Labour Govt. was elected on a promised program of social reform.

Re 18 & 29

Andy in Beds

You are right. Both of your contributions summarise accurately.

To all the nay sayers and dissenters on this and any other forum remember, the good guys won.

John Green

Not for me to judge. Wasn’t there, can’t experience that period of history.

For me Bomber Command are the aircraft, the exploits, the heroism, the sacrifice and the people who fought, flew and maintained those aircraft.
It’s the stories, the museums, the ghostly haunted old airbases, the old black and white films and the collection of models on my shelf.
Ultimately it’s the memorials, the reflection and the gratitude that I don’t have to do what they did.

Beautifully and poignantly put for mine.

Had Churchill offered the British people the same free Health Service that Labour delivered then the Conservatives could have won the 1945 election,no health service in their manifesto guaranteed they would lose.
Dresden was fair target given the V1s and V2s raining down on London,the Germans were attacking purely civilian targets from the very first V1 launch as they also did during the Blitz.Whether or not Churchill personally ordered it is only relevant if he did order it but denied ordering it -perhaps those who pointed the finger at Churchill were less than honest,the truth may one day become known.
Certainly postwar all servicemen were treated with less than the returning heroes laurels they deserved,partly because the country was bankrupt and partly because almost everyone wanted to try to forget the war and have some kind of normal peaceful life.
Over the past 70 years perhaps undue attention has been focused upon the Battle of Britain ignoring all the rest of the forces and campaigns except perhaps for the big D day anniversary,so its not just Bomber boys who were ´´betrayed´´

It wasn’t unknown for Churchill to manoeuvre himself away from a previous viewpoint if it put him in a better light.

To be expected I guess…he was a politician.:rolleyes:

Is the answer Winston Churchill?

It wasn’t unknown for Churchill to manoeuvre himself away from a previous viewpoint if it put him in a better light.

The documentary also mentions that post war the Russians encouraged the people of Dresden to commemorate the bombing, stirring up bad feeling towards the west.

Exactly, Dresden ended up in East Germany and the Soviet Union needed some ‘celebrity’ cause to highlight the civilian casualties caused by the Allies, the British and Americans anyway, and to help gloss-over the civilian casualties caused by the ‘excesses’ of the advancing (and later occupying) Red Army. Of course these demonstrations of outrage against the West also allowed an outlet for those who agreed with the ideals of the Nazi regime.

I agree also that the damage-limitation started before the end of the war in Europe. After the Warsaw Uprising in October 1944 the Nazis sent the surrendered Polish Home Army soldiers to POW camps; I’m sure if the war had been going better for Germany they would have been sent to the gas-chambers. Something like 175,000 Polish civilians died during and after the Uprising and most of these weren’t collateral casualties but victims of mass-murder; the Nazis also managed to send about 85,000 into slavery in Germany following the Uprising (where many died) and over 50,000 to extermination camps.

Perspective and context are the important things here; other nations that made far less ‘positive’ contribution to the outcome of the war have far more blood on their hands. At least Britain and Bomber Command are prepared to stand-up and take responsibility for the things that they did during the war; a war that Britain didn’t start and a war that Britain was on the ‘right’ side from the start.

Bang On Target.

I was looking forward to seeing this program, with, as usual, a certain amount of trepidation. Most of these documentaries end-up disappointing. Often, they are shallow, dumbed-down and ill-informed. In this case, I was much pleased. It also managed to avoid the use of a bunch of fat middle-aged men prancing around in RAF kit, which seems to bedevil many documentaries. In truth, they were all so very, very young. Most had hardly been kissed. Boys of perhaps eighteen or nineteen, flying into the very jaws of oblivion, who probably didn’t have a licence to drive a car.
The unveiling of the excellent new Memorial to Bomber Command was vastly overdue. Sadly, it comes too late for the many who passed-away, still bitter at their treatment. In my experience, it wasn’t what the old lags said, it was what they did not say that was significant. They held their peace, and carried-on, just as they did on those dark nights over Europe….
As something of a cynic in most matters, especially anything that politicians have had their grubby hands in, yesterday was like a breath of fresh air. Even the weather-gods smiled, and the Lanc’, arriving exactly on time with her bomb-doors open just creased me. Was it me, or was there a gasp from the gathered congregation..?
Having read through the comments here, there are some excellent points made. I would, as briefly as possible (:p), like to comment on two of them.

Labour;-
The voting-in of the Labour government after the war always used to baffle me. I’ve known many who voted at that time, most of whom, if not baffled, were greatly offended by ‘the way Churchill was treated’. As the years have passed, I’ve come to realise that, just as the Great War led to a huge leap forward in the emancipation of women, the Second World War led to a similar leap in the emancipation of the working-classes. A HUGE factor in this, often ignored, was the USA. There were a lot of Americans here, and they made a big impression. British folks had been watching American films for years. Viewed from the grey, cold rationed dystopian environment of the UK, America seemed almost utopian. Many who had fought in the Second World War had also grown-up in the Great Recession, and had known hardships far beyond that which we are currently experiencing with the failure and inevitable demise of the Euro. I do not see children barefoot in rags, nor old servicemen begging on street corners today.
Everyone wanted a new world. Of course, they didn’t get it, and turned back to their hero, Winston Churchill once again. By this time he was old, ill and tired. A great wartime leader he certainly was. His grasp of the dynamics of conflict was terrific. As a peacetime leader, well, perhaps he wasn’t so well-suited. It’s my opinion that the voters jumped-ship too soon. Given the problems with Russia, Churchill was still the right man, at least for a term.
What is quite touching, is that despite Churchill’s unarguable betrayal of Bomber Command, most Old Lags remained indignant about his ejection from power until the day they died. Loyalty was second nature to them.

Dresden;-
The way the program last night dealt with Dresden has to stand-out as by far the most accurate and logical treatment I have seen on the TV in recent times. So much utter and complete rubbish has been uttered on this subject, that it’s sometimes hard to crawl-over the myths and lies to see the truth, -and the true context. Clearly, many others on here feel similarly.
No, it wasn’t Harris’s idea.
Yes, it was mainly as a direct request, and general pressure from our allies, the Soviets.
Yes, it was no different to many other raids preceding it.
Yes, the USAAF bombed it too, just as they used area-bombing with incendiaries to great effect in Japan.
Was the result horrific? Of course, but then again, the enemy had the opportunity to surrender.
Yes, every day that passed, thousands more were murdered or killed on the battlefield. (Remember, over 20,000,000 Soviets died alone…….)
So, was it justified..? Yes, without any doubt. It’s sad, but it’s a fact.
Harris, who was so often vilified by the ignorant after the war and since, summed it up, and I’m paraphrasing here;- ‘…the enemy bombed us, in the somewhat naive belief that no one would do the same to them. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.’
Bomber Command was not only our only practical way of taking the fight to the enemy for most of the war, but those who have criticised it, in their ignorance, completely fail to understand and take into account it’s effects. Bomber Commands campaign was directly linked to EVERYTHING. It was a HUGE factor in blunting Hitler’s power on the Eastern Front. It hampered his building of equipment for his navy, army and airforce. It disrupted supplies of men and materials, and yes, it helped to destroy moral. It shortened the war by years.
The program more or less ended on the point that I have always found the most telling, and that it Albert Speers opinion on the effects of Bomber Command. He had NO doubts whatsoever. Bomber Command didn’t just win the war, they prevented the potential horror of it being dragged-on for years. Think of the deaths. Imagine all those extermination camps churning-out death for several more years. It was to everyones advantage that the war was ended ASAP. Not least for the German people themselves.
Finally, if the war had dragged-on, the Germans would have perfected the atomic bomb. They also happened to have, thanks to Herr Von Braun, the worlds first and only operational Ballistic Missile.
Dresden then, was something of a full-stop. It happened to be that last big raid. The last act for Bomber Command after years of toil and horrific losses. It was no more, – and no less.

Finally, – and not least;-
There have been those, such as the zealots of CND and their ilk, who have, and still, clothed in stupefying ignorance and a crown of angelic superiority, criticise Bomber Command. To them I say this; ‘You stand here, free to express your views, ONLY because the likes of Bomber Command went out, and died, night after night, after night. They did your dirty work, without which dissenters such as yourselves, would be finding their way, via the Gestapo or it’s decendant, to a ghastly and ignominious end.’
Tolerating hypocrisy has never been one of my strongest points.:rolleyes:

Strike Hard, Strike Sure.

I don’t rearly understand the politics of war. People killing people at the end of the day. One mans noble cause is another mans folly I guess. Not for me to judge. Wasn’t there, can’t experience that period of history.

For me Bomber Command are the aircraft, the exploits, the heroism, the sacrifice and the people who fought, flew and maintained those aircraft.
It’s the stories, the museums, the ghostly haunted old airbases, the old black and white films and the collection of models on my shelf.
Ultimately it’s the memorials, the reflection and the gratitude that I don’t have to do what they did.

For hampden98, RAF Oakley by the M40 east of Oxford.

Thanks for the info. Certainly a place to visit to experience what an RAF bomber base was like from the looks of it. I guess I would need to contact the owner somehow?

I find it sad that all the good work bomber command did during the war is overshadowed by Dresden.
The sacrifices the crews of the daylight bombers made early in the war don’t get a mention, where who squadrons of Battles were wiped out. The precision bombing by the likes of 617 , the raids on the V weapon launching sites etc ,etc.
I also find it strange that the American carpet bombing of the Japanese homeland before the nukes were dropped never seems to get a mention. The loss of civilian life there was horrendous and is arguably their Dresden.

…..it may be my life’s work! 😉

Having inhabited this forum for many years I would say that’s quite likely, and this is the old thrasher this one.

Like CD but less so, I’ve studied this for many years and formed then reformed my opinions. I think:
– Bomber Command did a pretty good job overall (yes that’s qualified).
– I have the utmost respect and admiration for the crews – they did an amazing job under terrifying circumstances.
– I have the utmost respect for the German defense personnel – they did an amazing job under terrifying circumstances.
– I think Dresden was unnecessary – I doubt it took a day off the war.
– It was by no means the first or most horrific such event. The camps aside, we and our Allies gave rather better in that regard than we received – but let’s face it was an all out war the like of which we’d all rather not see.
– I am appalled at the disrespect shown to Bomber Command until very very recently.
– I find Churchill’s distancing of himself repugnant.

Don

You are both choosing to miss the point, as I’m sure you are aware the war in europe was over, and for most people of Britain that meant the war itself was over.

The Japanese weren’t going to attack mainland Britain, and in a broader sense you could equate the war in the far east with Afganistan or Iraq,(of today) a long way away and (relatively speaking) very few people involved.

I think CD makes a valid point, that the Nazi’s were looking at damage limitation, (by the time the Dresden raid takes place) Goebels simply adds a zero to the death toll inflating the figures from 25000 to 250000, knowing the full horror of the concentration camps was about to be exposed.

The documentary also mentions that post war the Russians encouraged the people of Dresden to commemorate the bombing, stirring up bad feeling towards the west.

Churchill fails to mention Bomber command in his VE day address, which in my view was a matter of poor judgement, (he never mentioned the done work at station x either, for a different reason maybe)

Some how the allies had to pull themselves up from the mire of war; queensbury rules will get you killed, you have to be equally vicious as your opponent to win, but once you have won what then? swords maybe turned into ploughshares, but human beings are a little more complex, it takes a long time to forgive and forget, but equally most non combatants were sick of the war by it’s end, happy to move on to a bright future………..

why else was the Labour govt elected imediately post war?

As Kev says, the war wasn’t over and it looked like a lot of people were going to be killed finishing Japan. Also as John says, looking at the losses on Okinawa, the losses would have been horrendous.

But also too, it was ‘the khaki vote’ which turned the election of 1945. Rather than wishing to wash any hands, the many who had served thought a brave new World was needed. Despite the way history has remembered Churchill, at the time he was often less than popular.
The perception being that after ordinary folk had done a lot of fighting and dieing, perhaps the old rulling class needed moving to one side.
And let’s face it, the changes that election brought forward have benefitted our generation to a large extent.

All this of course doesn’t change my opinion that all politicians are self serving wasters.

Andy

The loss of USS Indianapolis was an absolute c&ck up by the US Navy. So many mistakes such as letting her go unescorted. Lack of concern over her being overdue and ignored distress messages caused the tragic death of so many lives. It need not have happened but in war so many things look different in hindsight. Still a sad loss to a fine ship with an illustrious war record.

It is interesting to note that purely British casualties between the election date of 5th July and the declaration of the result on the 26th amounts to some 1,600. That’s not counting Australians, Indians, New Zealanders, Canadians, East Africans or Americans.

The war was a long way from over as the figures above show. I wonder what the total would be for all Allied Nations between 8th May and 2nd September 1945?
Regards,
kev35

While 1600 is 1600 too many, the figure pales against American losses in that period.
About 900 men were lost in the sinking of the USS Indianapolis alone…

I’m sure the USAAF B-29 and fighter forces attacking the Japanese home islands suffered some losses as well. While not quite the level of 8th AF losses in 42-43, the B-29s had significant losses whether due to combat or accidents.

Add to the athe losses by Kamakazi attacks during the home stretch of the “Island Hopping” campaign. The USN sufferered 5000 dead in the battle of Okinawa (April-June 1945)…with 12,500 allied KIA overall. Some of those were with the RN.

For hampden98, RAF Oakley by the M40 east of Oxford.

Read what the “Brown Jobs” on ARRSE say(language can be ripe)

http://www.arrse.co.uk/intelligence-cell/184040-bomber-memorial-ceremony.html

…….why else was the Labour govt elected imediately post war?

It wasn’t. The election took place on July 5th 1945. The war was still going on in the Far East and the Pacific and didn’t end until 2nd September 1945. It is interesting to note that purely British casualties between the election date of 5th July and the declaration of the result on the 26th amounts to some 1,600. That’s not counting Australians, Indians, New Zealanders, Canadians, East Africans or Americans.

The war was a long way from over as the figures above show. I wonder what the total would be for all Allied Nations between 8th May and 2nd September 1945?

Regards,

kev35