Yet another kick in the face

To be perfectly honest, I am in two minds about whether or not this is a good thing.

I think it would be good for society that drug addicts are being dealth with and I bid good luck to those drug addicts who mind their own business and just get on with their lives (fortunately, there are such people in this world……I know some of them and I think they deserve the help that this idea may give them).

With the drug addicts who like to make other people’s lives a misery, however, I’m not so understanding. I wouldn’t give any of them the time of day and certainly not £10 a week to go shopping!!!!!!! The ones that I have day to day contact with have no respect for anyone, anything and are convinced that the whole world owes them something……..I wish things on them every day that I never even thought myself capable of dreaming up in my worst nightmares.

But again, good luck to those who deserve it. There are people who genuinely want help and genuinely do deserve it and I have no problem with giving them that help.

Personal reponsibility.

can someone explain to this simple minded personage, what stops the normal average individual from becoming a drug addict and turning to crime. Is it a sense of responsibility that they have for others, as well as for themselves. Over the last 30 years, our culture has become to liberal, in it’s attitude to personal responsibility. With personal responsibility comes discipline, which seems to be lacking these days. Look at the problems our society faces, all because some individuals have no sense of morality and respect in their lives. Yes, morality, discipline , respect and personal responsibility, these, made Britain the great country it once was. I can see nothing but trouble in the future, if the rot is allowed to continue unabated.
_____________________________

Kev35

Well I would be the last one to wish that you bleed to death from your nose or anywhere else.

By all means stress the positive side of things but lets not lose sight of the reality that addictions are usually self imposed. My experience and observation suggests that beating one depends on character and resolve not a handout.

Sauron

Self Imposed? Bit of a generialisation dont you think?

Those who have what you view as a less than satisfactory level of character are to be chastisied, written off ,treated as 2nd class citizens or worse?

So, for instance, the kid who under peer pressure tries drugs and gets hooked is solely at fault and is not therefore a responsability of society ?

Does this thinking apply to smokers as well? should they be banned from Public heath care where their illness can be attributed to their addiction? After all they know what they are doing dont they?

What about someone who takes a drink? Banned from this “caring “society as well when their livers start to act up?

So Were do you draw the line?

Watch out …..Generialisations are frowned upon by some members here…but then being a pinko liberal commie lover i probably have to live by different rules than some! :diablo:

Kev35

Well I would be the last one to wish that you bleed to death from your nose or anywhere else.

By all means stress the positive side of things but lets not lose sight of the reality that addictions are usually self imposed. My experience and observation suggests that beating one depends on character and resolve not a handout.

Sauron

Oh Sauron.

Come down off your high horse, the altitude will give you a nose bleed.

I merely stated that having worked and taught in the area of special needs, I found it strange that you would consider those with disabilities to be ‘handicapped.’ I’m not saying that I have a greater insight than you, just that I find it to be a retrograde step when one states “I have known a number of folks with real handicaps…….”

I’m not sure of Hurrifan’s location but I bet if his sister was treated by the NHS of the 50’s and 60’s there would have been other veiled nomenclature referring to those with similar conditions to his sister. A read through old notes makes interesting, if not slightly disturbing, reading. Any return to the ‘good old days’ is a regression into the dark ages in that respect. Interestingly, with the advances in medical sciences, the question now becomes one of early detection and choice and a hotbed of discussion for ‘right to life’ campaigners.

Back to the original point of this thread. I still disagree that it is entirely down to ‘choice’ whether anyone takes a route to any form of addictive behaviour, with the possible exceptions of tobacco and alcohol. Surely, the point is if drugs were not widely available, as they are now, the likelihood of addiction would decrease. And the only way to do that is to stop the dealers.

Regards,

kev35

Oh boy, I bet they love you describing them that way. Still, like most of your rhetoric this proves that you resort at will to the language of the early 20th Century.

Perhaps you’d be more comfortable using the old terms of reference, imbecile, idiot, moron.

I have worked with hundreds of adults and young children who are challenged in some way. It’s the use of negative language like that you have chosen which effectively ‘handicaps’ those with varied and multiple physical and learning disabilities.

You keep telling someone they are ‘handicapped’ and they will begin to believe it. Try accentuating the positives, no matter how small they are.

Regards,

kev35

Well said Kev,

when my sister was born with Downs and severe heart problems my parents went to various specialists to see what could be done to improve her life. At one meeting they were told that they had an ” idiot ” child and they should learn to live with “it” .They were further advised that she should be put in a home and forgotten about.

Needless to say this advise was ignored and she lived a happy life at home untill her untimely passing.

..And i was foolish enough to think that such thinking was athing of the past.

Kev35

Ah yes “I have worked with hundreds of adults and young children who are challenged in some way………” therefore I have a special insight which makes anything you have to say invalid. 😉

Sauron

Invalid? bit extreme dont you think?

“….have known a number of folks with real handicaps “

Strange terminogy for ANYONE who has even the slightest connection to people who are challenged to use.

and again…..and again…..and again……

[QUOTE=J Boyle;

“Just highlighting your words.[/B] Glad you like my signature…and living up to it, I’ll simply point out you were the one making a generalization.
You’re the one name calling, then accuse me of throwing a tantrum…because you disagree with what I say.
If you don’t like someone’s opinion..no need to resort to name calling.”

I will remind you of that sometime when others resort to their long established tactics of talking down to people and using terms such as “left wing loonies ” to describe either beleifs or individuals…Or is this term acceptable and the description of people such as Pinocet ( remember the US supported mass murderer? ) Thatcher ( Killer of the NHS ..ably followed by Poodle Blair) or the present Burmese Administration as right wing loonies a no no?

So how is it a generialisation to use such terminology for the right wing and not for the left wing or that other dirty word Liberals ?

and please note, for about the tenth time, that i used the term ” Government “……It was not a description of you or any individual on this forum.. Please stop trying to twist words to suit yourself

come to think of it…. your use of the term ” hatefull” makes your accusation of Name calling pretty ripe …. ” with malice towards none” …really????

My use of the term ” looney right wing goverments” was in the following context ;

Do we allow that those who are weak (for no matter what reason ) be treated as contempable beings who deserve 2nd class citizenship? Do we really want to go down that slippery path?

I dont think so and i think that when the time comes for the next elections, here there and everywhere, a fair few people will find that i am not the only one!!!

Kev35

Ah yes “I have worked with hundreds of adults and young children who are challenged in some way………” therefore I have a special insight which makes anything you have to say invalid. 😉

Sauron

I have worked with hundreds of adults and young children who are challenged in some way. It’s the use of negative language like that you have chosen which effectively ‘handicaps’ those with varied and multiple physical and learning disabilities.

You keep telling someone they are ‘handicapped’ and they will begin to believe it. Try accentuating the positives, no matter how small they are.

For once I totaly agree with every word you have just said Kev.

I have known a number of folks with real handicaps…….

Regards

Sauron

Oh boy, I bet they love you describing them that way. Still, like most of your rhetoric this proves that you resort at will to the language of the early 20th Century.

Perhaps you’d be more comfortable using the old terms of reference, imbecile, idiot, moron.

I have worked with hundreds of adults and young children who are challenged in some way. It’s the use of negative language like that you have chosen which effectively ‘handicaps’ those with varied and multiple physical and learning disabilities.

You keep telling someone they are ‘handicapped’ and they will begin to believe it. Try accentuating the positives, no matter how small they are.

Regards,

kev35

..and of course you chose only to use a part of my sentence which was in fact addressed to Looney right wing governments…

Just highlighting your words. Glad you like my signature…and living up to it, I’ll simply point out you were the one making a generalization.
You’re the one name calling, then accuse me of throwing a tantrum…because you disagree with what I say.
If you don’t like someone’s opinion..no need to resort to name calling.

..
…what is your solution

I don’t have one other than the bindlingly simple appeal for common sense to reign supreme. In an issue as complex as drug abuse…people have differnt needs. Some will need lots of understanding…some probably need the metaphorical (as opposed to literal…I wouldn’t want you to accuse me of promoting phyisical abuse) kick in the backside…
To reuse my quote the meaning of which you seemed to miss…
“of course we have sympathy for the “underprivileged” and give them help were we can…but her’s my main point…we also need to have some sympathy for the working bloke (i.e. the taxpayer) who is expected to support himself and his family but other people/programs as well.
The funds are not unlimited and they do have to come from somewhere.”

Just as we expect the money spent of defense to be well used..social funds also need to be spent wisely. And again, I’ll point to the author of this thread… and acknowledge the fact he has a right to his opinions and frustration. And just because he feels some frustration does’t make him (to use your phrase) a “right wing looney”.
The rich (obviously) can afford to pay high taxes…the poor don’t have to pay much either. So it’s the “average” guy who feels the squeeze.

Still you don’t have to be (in your hateful generalization) a “..right wing looney” to have a bit of sympathy for not only the “underprivileged”
but also the working bloke who is expected to support himself and his family but other people as well.
The funds are not unlimited and they do have to come from somewhere.

All the more reason they need to be spend wisely on those who really need help…and not just an open wallet for those who went out of their way to foul up their own lives.

Interesting use of language from someone who claims ” With malice towards none ” :rolleyes: ..and of course you chose only to use a part of my sentence which was in fact addressed to Looney right wing governments… to be honest if we want to view somewhat less than friendly discourse….well we can leave that up to others to decide!…i know where i can go find some if i ever wanted to ..but i dont!!

I can think of various sayings involving toys being projected from prams at high velocity or a bed not having a right side as a description for this sort of comment .. and that is how i will excuse it!! :dev2:

but back to this rash statement’s content….Need we go through the examples of right wing governments/Administrations who have cut social welfare programmes to the bone? Need we list the ultra Right wing governments/administrations who have viewed those with disability as being not worth the effort ? Need we list the various right wing Governments/Administrations who have destroyed various Public heath services?…and you wouldnt describe at least some of these as looney right wingers?

and once again you ignore the fact that some people arnt as strong as the rest of us and can fall victim to that lack of strength….what is your solution?

People who find themselves with an addiction have an illness ….

In my posts I’ve never said addicts shouldn’t be helped…but I can understand why the author of the thread starter feels the way he does about the allocation or resources to people who have somehow screwed up their lives.

I’m sure some have (what seems to them) valid reasons for their dependency on drink or drugs.
I’m sure some don’t. They get hooked by the peer pressure you describe.

Still you don’t have to be (in your hateful generalization) a “..right wing looney” to have a bit of sympathy for not only the “underprivileged”
but also the working bloke who is expected to support himself and his family but other people as well.
The funds are not unlimited and they do have to come from somewhere.

All the more reason they need to be spend wisely on those who really need help…and not just an open wallet for those who went out of their way to foul up their own lives.

I don’t think the UK drug problem…the topic of this thread…was started by UK military veterans with post traumatic stress problems. :diablo:

At some point people choose to do drugs… Who knows why..I can’t believe anyone who having a problem would think…”Heroin will sort me out”.
Kurt Cobain blew his face off because in the words of a friend…he was sick and tried of feeling sick and tired because of his drug problem.

With few exceptions (mainly among the rich who could either afford to get help…or afford to stay strung out and not worry about earning a living) being a serious heroin user has never led to a good outcome.
Still, people make the choice to try it for the first time.

It’s not like booze where you’re expected by society to use it…and some fall into to a serious/tragic addiction.

I never intended to say that military service is the sole cause of the drug problem either here, there or anywhere else! It was meant simply as an illustration of where stress related problems can lead.

i agree that it would seem impossible that they see it as a way to sort things out but rather as with alcohol it is a way to get ” away” from life’s problems for a short time…silly i know but it seems all too common. and again all too often it leads to addiction in both cases.

People also choose to start drinking or smoking for the first time despite knowing the risks involved..should we stop all Government funded programmes aimed at these addictions as well?

And with regards to Society “expectations” ,from what i have come across recently it is unfortunately now as susceptible to ” peer pressure ” even more so than alcohol especially amongst the young.

after most wars there is a flux of drink or drug related problems amongst those who defended freedom…….
If you honestly believe that people CHOOSE this course of life then i really think , in the words of your southern neighbours , that you need a Reality check!!!!

I don’t think the UK drug problem…the topic of this thread…was started by UK military veterans with post traumatic stress problems. :diablo:

At some point people choose to do drugs… Who knows why..I can’t believe anyone who having a problem would think…”Heroin will sort me out”.
Kurt Cobain blew his face off because in the words of a friend…he was sick and tried of feeling sick and tired because of his drug problem.

With few exceptions (mainly among the rich who could either afford to get help…or afford to stay strung out and not worry about earning a living) being a serious heroin user has never led to a good outcome.
Still, people make the choice to try it for the first time.

It’s not like booze where you’re expected by society to use it…and some fall into to a serious/tragic addiction.

A world fit only for the strong?

Well said J Boyle.

I have known a number of folks with real handicaps and any claim that the average drug addict should be given the same consideration is nonsense. Falling on hard times is one thing, but then choosing to make matters worse by becoming a drug addict as well is mindless.

Regards

Sauron

Oh dear…missed the point again Sauron!!!!

” choosing” ???? Really???

Quote;

” Never forget the old saying ” There ,but for the grace of god ,go I ”

Hopefully you or any member of your family or circle of friends will never have to avail of the limited resources available to the Rehab organisations. “

Who can say what may happen to them in the future? who is to say what might happen to their family in the future?

after most wars there is a flux of drink or drug related problems amongst those who defended freedom…are they to be condemned as well if they ” foolishly” tried to flee the demons that are running around inside their heads? are they to be cast out as well?

If you honestly believe that people CHOOSE this course of life then i really think , in the words of your southern neighbours , that you need a Reality check!!!!

Both sides have their points…

Rewarding bad behavior isn’t a good idea…anyone out there ever have a puppy?

But you have to give a hand to those who need it…especially through no fault of their own.

But Hurrifan, I think your comparison is a bit too broad..there’s a big difference between drug addicts and the handicapped.
Yes, I know that people turn to drink and drugs for many reasons…mum was unloving, the pressure of the real world, or they wanted just to be like Eric Clapton (in the old days). But at some point they had a choice …unlike the handicapped.

It’s a pity some waste their lives and a lot of society’s resources that could be better used elsewhere…fighting cancer, better education, environmental causes…
rebuilding a Vulcan.:rolleyes:

unfortunately i believe that you have missed the point that i was trying to get across….People using disabled parking spaces are ignoring the needs of those in need, those who would be seen to be disadvantaged or in the view of among the weak of society..

People who find themselves with an addiction have an illness ….it is an illness that some people are more likely to catch than others you dont have to be a down and out or for that matter a “hooray henry”.

do you honestly believe that people WANT to become drug addicts? do you honestly believe that people who drink too much started out on life wanting to become a drunk? do you honestly believe that those who are clinically obese decided heyyy lets get overweight? In a lot of cases its the world we live in and the society we have that drives some people to the bottle , the needle or even McDonalds…And once any of these get a grip its hard to get away from them.

i have seen too many of my father’s generation, and before, who through no choice had to leave their native land for work.For a lot of them the bottle was their only solace in an alien land . do you know what it is like to be alone , far from home and knowing no one? It isnt nice.

Now they are old and uncared , some are alcoholics.Are they to be thrown on the scrap heap as well? after all they made the choice to drink didnt they?

Drugs are , i believe the modern day equivalent to drink and from what i know a lot cheaper.Is it any wonder, in some cases, that in this age of “greed is good” those who have little or nothing want to hide away from the cruel comparison that their life might be? Or that others cant handle loosing that same wealth or position through no fault of their own? are they to be condemned as well?

If as a society we decide that certain people who are weak are essentially an underclass then we are on a slippery slope that may end up with extremist right wing loonies deciding WE arnt good enough either!!!!

WE are judged by how we look after the weakest in our societies.

And as for wasting money…..Unjust wars in far away places? Infantry weapons that break down? ammunition that jams? Lives cut short ?

Well said J Boyle.

I have known a number of folks with real handicaps and any claim that the average drug addict should be given the same consideration is nonsense. Falling on hard times is one thing, but then choosing to make matters worse by becoming a drug addict as well is mindless.

Regards

Sauron

Both sides have their points…

Rewarding bad behavior isn’t a good idea…anyone out there ever have a puppy?

But you have to give a hand to those who need it…especially through no fault of their own.

But Hurrifan, I think your comparison is a bit too broad..there’s a big difference between drug addicts and the handicapped.
Yes, I know that people turn to drink and drugs for many reasons…mum was unloving, the pressure of the real world, or they wanted just to be like Eric Clapton (in the old days). But at some point they had a choice …unlike the handicapped.

It’s a pity some waste their lives and a lot of society’s resources that could be better used elsewhere…fighting cancer, better education, environmental causes…
rebuilding a Vulcan.:rolleyes: