Yorkshire Airshow -Elvington

Elvington Shots

Heres my contribution from a wet day at Elvington.

But as you will see from the video clip, it warmed up towards the end

http://www.members.aol.com/phileaf92/Elvington.wmv

This is my first post on this forum, and Im a newbie to Airshows, and i have only been to two, Elvington 05 and 07. And id just like to say to FREEBIRD, your crew put on a spectacular show, and to be honest I was never a fan of the hunter, UNTIL LAST SATURDAY that is, what a fantastic sight the two hunters were, i would have gladly paid the entrance fee just for the hunter dispaly. and the bombing of the runway was awsome, So as soon as the hunters had finished we walked to the stalls and bought a couple of those corgi diecast models as a momento, So a big Thumbs up as far as my family are concerned, both the the HUNTER crews and the organisers, As for the rest of the show being poor, i cannot agree, its not just the planes in the air that provided the highlights. it was meeting the pilots and groundcrew, Especially the HUEY crew,

at least one of the crewe was a Vietnam vet, and more than probably flew that exact same machine as it was in his unit, he was a true gentleman and was more than happy to talk and take pics with my son and I, it was an honour to meey him……Also one of the wingwalker plane pilots used to be a RED ARROW, and again he was more than happy to sign my sons model of a red arrow and chat about his aircraft. we also met the owner of the superb VICTOR and chatted with him, So all in all we had a fantastic day, despite the weather and some of the aircraft being cancelled, so we will be returning next year and fingers crossed we may see the VULCAN, So to freebird and the rest of the hardworking unsung heroes of the show KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK………

I’m sure that if the weather had cleared by Sunday lunchtime, as per forecast, most of the show would have gone ahead as originally planned – albeit without the Vulcan.

Re. Breighton: There were about thirty or so volunteers working during our event, the same thirty or so that work there at every event we stage, we can almost communicate on a psychic level!! We were water-logged until the weekend before, everyone knew the score with the runway, the lighter aircraft might have flown had the sun come out but the forecast was pretty conclusive.

I fear the original move was made in the early 1920’s when Winston Churchill, then a government minister, spoke in a debate on the need to subsidise civil air transport. He said something to the effect that “Civil aviation has come of age and it must pay its own way.”

Up to 1972 a civil service department was responsible for civil aviation and there were no charges levied by the government. It was paid for out of general taxation.

On the formation of the CAA by combining the existing ARB and elements from the civil service the intention was announced by the government that, after a short period, charges would be introduced to eventually recover all the costs of the organisation. Not only 100% but a 6% or so surplus to cover capital interest charges.

In the early 1990’s charges for various aspects of the airshow industry were introduced and these escalated over a few years to an intended 100% cost recovery, a figure not yet achieved to the best of my knowledge.

There are a few countries where the national aviation authority recovers its costs by charging and more are considering such a move, particularly in Europe. Our new pan-European civil aviation regulator, EASA, has a cost recovery basis already established. Eurocontrol has also always charged for the services it provides.

Hope this helps with your question.

Cheers,

Trapper 69
:diablo:

Wouldn’t life be so much simpler without politicians?:)

Remember…

Lets keep personal nudges and sarcastic comments out of this discussion. If you need to get into it please do so by PM.

I know this point is off topic but… Why is Britain the only country where the national aviation authoruity is expected to cover its own expenses (and make a profit) instead of being a proper government department funded by said government? This country has gone to the dogs courtesy of a few decades of political ineptitude.

I fear the original move was made in the early 1920’s when Winston Churchill, then a government minister, spoke in a debate on the need to subsidise civil air transport. He said something to the effect that “Civil aviation has come of age and it must pay its own way.”

Up to 1972 a civil service department was responsible for civil aviation and there were no charges levied by the government. It was paid for out of general taxation.

On the formation of the CAA by combining the existing ARB and elements from the civil service the intention was announced by the government that, after a short period, charges would be introduced to eventually recover all the costs of the organisation. Not only 100% but a 6% or so surplus to cover capital interest charges.

In the early 1990’s charges for various aspects of the airshow industry were introduced and these escalated over a few years to an intended 100% cost recovery, a figure not yet achieved to the best of my knowledge.

There are a few countries where the national aviation authority recovers its costs by charging and more are considering such a move, particularly in Europe. Our new pan-European civil aviation regulator, EASA, has a cost recovery basis already established. Eurocontrol has also always charged for the services it provides.

Hope this helps with your question.

Cheers,

Trapper 69
:diablo:

I know this point is off topic but… Why is Britain the only country where the national aviation authoruity is expected to cover its own expenses (and make a profit) instead of being a proper government department funded by said government? This country has gone to the dogs courtesy of a few decades of political ineptitude.

Skybolt all you say is true (in your original post), but then many people on this forum and those with young families may not be fortunate to have loads of cash spare, as you obviously do having been a former highly paid CAA employee and I guess on a fat cat subsistence as befits pensioners of said organisation. It is that same CAA which charges extortionate fees for staging air shows – which you attend for free, of course. 😉

My goodness another poster ready to be bitten, fantabulous.

As a 69 year old OAP the pension I earned during nearly 14 years with the CAA before retiring in 1998 is about 110% of the state pension so I get around £14,000 a year gross in total from which tax is deducted. Not exactly fat cat. My wife and I subsist but there is not much spare cash at the end of the year. A deficit is quite often the case.

I believe service pensions are rather more generous but I do not have details. No doubt you can assist me here.

The CAA has never staged an airshow. The charges it makes are for the Air Navigation Order Article 80 permission to hold such a show. The government requires the CAA to cover its costs plus a margin it specifies and charges such as you mention are part of that cost recovery. These charges are subject to a consultation process each year where the airshow industry makes its views known.

As for attending shows for free……………!!!!!

Before I retired in 1998 I frequently had to attend airshows as the CAA inspector in order to monitor standards and compliance with CAP403. Being on duty I certainly was not expected to pay to enter.

Since retirement I often attend shows as an ordinary spectator and pay the normal entry charges, occasionally at a reduced rate for an OAP if there is one.

Equally well I am engaged as a participant to fly in quite a number of displays each year where I am paid by the organiser for the act in the same way as all the others who take part.

Finally organisers do ask me to be part of, or even head, their Flying Display Safety Committees occasionally. When that happens they naturally send me entry tickets on a complimentary basis.

Hope that settles your sarcastic spiel………….. it should do………!!!

Cheers,

Trapper 69
😡

Finally I am a Yorkshireman by birth and we do have a reputation for being a bit tight with the “brass” however I feel that you are not merely tight, but bloody stingey. Perhaps you hail from north of the border.

Skybolt all you say is true (in your original post), but then many people on this forum and those with young families may not be fortunate to have loads of cash spare, as you obviously do having been a former highly paid CAA employee and I guess on a fat cat subsistence as befits pensioners of said organisation. It is that same CAA which charges extortionate fees for staging air shows – which you attend for free, of course. 😉

The unpredictable UK weather is often the killer for many an airshow. With the Vulcan to be restricted to flight in VMC, it would not have surprised me (given the weather reports mentioned – I wasn’t there) if that aircraft would not have be able to attend the airshow, due weather, even if it had been flight cleared to do so many months ago, and was already active on the display circuit. This scenario of a washed-out programme curtailing appearances won’t please the multitude, after they have forked out to see the dead dodo.

Not been to Elvington since the RAF had it – all those damned steps to climb up to the tower were a killer.

davski/Freebird

I think you are missing the point I was making ( nothing to do with the flying programme at either show)……….At Breighton we were told of the situation as we entered the gate that many of the aircraft were not there and flying would be very limited, were as yesterday nothing was known till we were in that a major part of the flying was missing. No were in any of my posts have I slanted any flying or dispaly, I think you should read them again, My gripe so to speak was the info that was given to the public

My point about comparing the two venues of Breighton and Elvington does give the answer, at least to some extent. The guys on the gate at Breighton are almost certainly volunteers from those enthusiasts whose local airfield is Breighton. In addition the access and volume of traffic means it is far easier to let visitors have last minute details. The same is not in any way true of Elvington where the guys on the gate are sub-contracted from “rent a mob” to carry out the huge task. I doubt if they know anything about aircraft or airshows.

Cheers,

Trapper 69
😉

PS – My posts usually have a bit of “bite” as those who have been bitten in the past will, no doubt, confirm. Thanks for the “grit” comment – after being away from the West Riding for some 62 years the odd trace of Yorkshire grit remains. Long may it be so.

davski/Freebird

I think you are missing the point I was making ( nothing to do with the flying programme at either show)……….At Breighton we were told of the situation as we entered the gate that many of the aircraft were not there and flying would be very limited, were as yesterday nothing was known till we were in that a major part of the flying was missing. No were in any of my posts have I slanted any flying or dispaly, I think you should read them again, My gripe so to speak was the info that was given to the public

Elvington

As part of the Hunter ground crew, I would like to put across one or two points

I can understand people’s frustration at paying to see aircraft which were advertised to attend an air show, only to find some of these aircraft did not appear. This is usually because the aircraft has become unservicable, or the weather conditions have prevented the aircraft from flying to the event.

Unfortunately the Elvington show was disrupted by the weather conditions and this in turn affected the number of aircraft attending this event. I admit the flying display was small, but the chance to see two Hunters displaying and performing an airfield attack, is unique to the Elvington show. The public were also treated to a breathtaking display by the Hunter FGA-9 XE601
The pilot, Andy Foan, put together a display which showed the aircraft at its best and no one who was there could not have been impressed with the low fast passes across the airfield and the distinctive sound of the “blue note” echoing across the crowd.

I know that some of the Hunter ground crew drove all the way from Exeter, which was a 800 miles round trip and sixteen hrs altogether behind the wheel. I drove 400 miles in total and spent eight hrs in total behind the wheel, all because we want to show the public these fine aircraft and that goes for ALL the other participants.

In the end the air show organisers, the aircraft owners and the support guys can only do their best and sometimes these things happen.

Freebird

…the Breighton shows so brilliantly orchestrated by the Real Aeroplane Company. But Breighton is not Elvington. The scale and content is entirely different. Part of the charm is the limited size of the venue which gives a more intimate feeling and one where communication is easier.

As Skybolt says, there really is no comparison, the vast majority of aircraft seen at Breighton are resident there, and whilst the Magister or Aeronca C-100 can hold most visitors attention within the confines of a small grass airstrip like Breighton, that sort of item would be lost along Elvington’s enormous display line. I don’t think that people expect that sort of display item at an event like Elvington anyway.

Just imagine this thread had the weather been more inkeeping with the season and the if Vulcan had been ready to display! Well turned on its head!!

Ken Cothliffe is quoted in the Yorkshire Evening Press as saying that attendence figures were up by about a third on last year for the Saturday which, given the weather forecast, is some achievement. That said, I was still being asked in the pub on Friday night if I was going to see the Vulcan at Elvington on Saturday…

Skybolt

Looking back at it my first post it was not put in the correct manner and i apologies for this, Unfortunatly Elvington just summed the airshow season this year wet windy and limited aircraft through no fault of the organises, With Elvington been such a cracking event over the years I’d recomended it to many friends and family, over 10 people came in our group and i was more dissapointed for them. Although I do think the RAF (MOD) should pull there finger out and get things sorted, I know the armd forces are overstreched but how can they promote the RAF when they are a no show….anyway I apologies again for my abrupt first post. I will be there next year and will keep promoting the event to who ever may listen!

Good to get a response with a bit of grit in it anyway;)

I have to say, I’d been looking forward to Elvington for a long time, and when I saw the line-up on the web I kinda wondered if the organisers had put aside a huge chunk of cash to pay for Vulcan, because there didn’t seem to be as many aircraft as usual. Mind you, many airshows these days don’t seem to have as many participants as they used to – is it my imagination?

Anyway, I was there all weekend from Friday afternoon onwards with one of the stalls. A few aircraft blobbed – Venom, B17, 2 Hunters etc, but this certainly wasn’t the fault of the organisers, who tried very hard to put on a good show despite the no-shows, dismal weather, fewer trade stands etc. I still had an excellent weekend, the atmosphere was really friendly, the aircraft that did display put on a good show and my friend’s stall generated a lot of interest. Highlights had to be the low-level beat-up by the 2 Hunters on the Friday and seeing the Huey for the first time. Low points were shoplifting and drunken behaviour (customers, not us!!) at the stall.

It’s always a really good, friendly atmosphere at Elvington ( I think that remains from when it used to be a very small, low-key affair many years ago) and the proximity of runway to crowd line means my 75-300mm lense at least stands a chance!! I’m already looking forward to next year, and who knows – maybe the Vulcan will turn up! I’d like to pass on my thanks to all concerned with organising the show.

Bob

Skybolt
I’m sorry that you took my opinion as some kind of personal attack but it is a country of free speech after all.

I have been to Elvington many times and I must say its one of the best private museums I’ve been to and airshows BUT I just feel though we were alittle dissapointed with the outcome, surely on the gate we should have been told that alot of aircraft where not coming or there? I went to Brieghton in July when it p i s s e d it down and the communication was much better £16 i Know is not much of an entry fee but when you add petrol and the rest of the family it all adds up. I dont mind paying after all I’ve been to Fairford! and I dont mind the rain, been to Finningley in a September!

I would like your un-offended response to
Why was BBMF only on a Saturday?
Why was Red arrows only on a Saturday?
Where were the RAF? and why arnt they supporting the biggest Airshow in Yorkshire, 1 Tucano aint much

Oh by the way I’ll buy you a pint to show you i’m not that stingy;)

Well I do apologise a little for a rather intemperate response to your original post. I had just returned from a wet and dismal, but still highly enjoyable, weekend at the DeHMC annual extravaganza at Woburn and reading your words really lit my blue touch paper…..!!

Free speech yes……….. but perhaps you might complain if one or two words were omitted even if it cost you zilch.

I fully agree with you about the Breighton shows so brilliantly orchestrated by the Real Aeroplane Company. But Breighton is not Elvington. The scale and content is entirely different. Part of the charm is the limited size of the venue which gives a more intimate feeling and one where communication is easier.

I too have been soaked at past Finningley displays both as a spectator and as a participant.

Having been to RIAT I now know you do appreciate that a £16 entry charge is not extortionate.

Now to your current queries –
Why was BBMF only on a Saturday? –
Why was Red Arrows only on a Saturday?
Where were the RAF? and why arnt they supporting the biggest Airshow in Yorkshire, 1 Tucano aint much?

For the answer you must approach those at the MoD that allocate and juggle their limited airshow assets to the various display organisers right round the country and abroad. I am certain that the Elvington organisers will have put their request in on time back in September 2006. No doubt they wanted as much as could be granted by the MoD. Unfortunately this year the assets available are much less than in previous years due, no doubt, to the current overstretch on the RAF and the other armed forces in Iraq and Afganistan. If you only got one Tucano then tough. It will still have been the finest display in a Tucano in the UK in 2007 if the pilot had the right weather to display his talents. Remember Elvington was not the only large airshow last weekend, I understand Eastbourne had 800,000 spectators over the two days at their free show sponsored by the local council as a major tourist attraction. The MoD do consider likely public attendance numbers, among other things, when considering where to send their assets.

Hope that helps to explain the situation. If and when we ever get any hot summer weather this year your offer of a pint might come in handy. I will buy the next round.

Cheers,

Trapper 69
:diablo:

huey site

Nice sight but is there a way of stopping the music in the background. makes for a terrible experience when you try to watch the videos…?

Elvington Huey

Well i enjoyed Elvington and want to say a public THANKS to all those who set it up ….. shame about the weather but there you are …good ol’ Blighty for you!…British Summer! Still, Saturday was a full (flat ) display day whereas Sunday suffered somewhat but still got about 90% of it in!

Anyway, regarding the Huey, it was not firing blanks or any thing like that. Its 50 cals are gas powered with NO moving parts or FOD …just spark plug, gas mix, big bang and a six inch ‘blue flame exhaust gas’ out of the barrels! …Sounds good and VERY real doesnt it!!! … i know, … been there, done that ….

Someone said ‘military’ aircraft in a previous post above …. cant get much more military that this …. 108 combat missions and 559 flying hours in Nam! REAL Bullet holes and all …… Hope you liked her … www.huey.co.uk

Cheers all, fly safe

I must say after just getting back from Elvington how dissapointed i am, I know the weather is bad but how can they justify £16 per person when all that i saw flying warbird (military aircraft) wise was 2 hunters and a seafire ALL day, I dont mind paying for myself and the family to get in but surely with so much not been there (that was In the programme) why couldnt they have reduced the price alittle, Elvington was a cracking show a few years ago, whats happened? and as for saying the Vulcan was going to be there, everyone in the know knew there was no chance so why advertise it?

😡 So i take it that you knew before hand that the Vulcan was not going to be there, but you still went!! Bit like eatting your meal at a resurant and them complaining it was no good to try and get your money back. was going to go on more but i think Skybolt has covered it all. You just carnt please some people:diablo:

Skybolt
I’m sorry that you took my opinion as some kind of personal attack but it is a country of free speech after all.

I have been to Elvington many times and I must say its one of the best private museums I’ve been to and airshows BUT I just feel though we were alittle dissapointed with the outcome, surely on the gate we should have been told that alot of aircraft where not coming or there? I went to Brieghton in July when it p i s s e d it down and the communication was much better £16 i Know is not much of an entry fee but when you add petrol and the rest of the family it all adds up. I dont mind paying after all I’ve been to Fairford! and I dont mind the rain, been to Finningley in a September!

I would like your un-offended response to

Why was BBMF only on a Saturday?
Why was Red arrows only on a Saturday?
Where were the RAF? and why arnt they supporting the biggest Airshow in Yorkshire, 1 Tucano aint much

Oh by the way I’ll buy you a pint to show you i’m not that stingy;)