mattMilitary experts’ warning over defence spending review
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Which hornet are these guys on about? It cant be the one that is in service now or the superhornet block II+
Also how is the price of the Typhoon versus Hornet considered…
mattIt’s putting the cart before the horse
mattOr…
You, India, can’t have these items if you want to develope one of these types of aircraft on your own. But you can have them, only if, we, the US, are there to keep an eye you which will still mean restrictions, limited ToT and possibly even sanctions if you mis-behave yourselves…
…That more or less sounds like what the US is saying. Like I’ve always said, there’ll never be any trust between the US and India especially since the latter are all snuggled up & comfy with Russia, not that its a bad thing but I certainly suspect that some in the US government and their aviation industry think it is…
Personally, and I’m not being “anti-US” or “pro-Euro” here, if I were in charge of the MMRCA in India, I’d rip up the US offers and say thanks, but no thanks. Their offers are just too suspect.
You are prob correct India and its defense will be In the hands of USA but unfortunately congress is in power and even without the large corrupt element in congress it has favoured relationships with the USA in the past even to the detriment of its own country.
Also even is the agreements are signed who really thinks India will get source codes where the UK has failed?
mattBack in the jet age! 😀
With Typhoon, India gets tech, freedom to act!
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/360-degree/typhoon-india-gets-tech-freedom-act-276
Hopefully with everyone pointing out how troublesome and lacking the us bids are the IAF will go for something good like the efa or gripen NG!
mattMatt,
To judge the “ether”, to tell whether your “ether” is factual or just gripes… you need to have an understanding of the climate HAL works under, what its strengths and weaknesses are and even where HALs peers are, both public & private, the programs they are working on, their record so far, and even the non glamorous details…it requires a lot of effort, have you done all this?
Plus, you neither work in India or are even resident in India. In all your posts so far, I haven’t found anything in depth about the state of industry in India today. Its mostly been opinion but that doesn’t always translate to facts.
If you have to evaluate HAL dispassionately, one cant depend on something as iffy as the ether. One has to depend on facts. Financial performance. Details. Numbers. Programs and Performance. Customer satisfaction. After all this, if there is something from the “ether” – then you can well make out whether it is factual or just sour grapes.
Unless you do all this, all this ether stuff is just the “ICHS” – Indian Coffee House Syndrome, where everyone sits together and b!tches about everything under the sky.
As a case in point, I am yet to see any of the vast majority of people I have been in touch with, in private organizations, the who’s who of the efficient private Indian industry and what not, actually be happy with their firms. They are mostly dissatisfied on one level or the other. Its either this or that, money or something else.
That is the reality & the perspective I was pointing to, all this ether stuff apart, the facts are that as far as product development is concerned the reality speaks for itself. HAL has products like the IJT, LCH etc which dwarf anything Indian pvt firms have done so far. For the Indian pvt sector to compete, they have to invest in R&D correspondingly, with a far higher rate of investment to scale up to HAL level in the aircraft domain. Are they doing so? No. Its mostly build to print, supply chain participation, offset work and some limited investment in mergers and acquisitions so far. All this will take a decade to mature.
These are facts & pure hard ones from the business point of view. HAL, BEL have a scale which is full spectrum, and they have competent leadership who are not sitting idle.
Their private peers are far behind & will require a lot of time to catch up, even hoping HAL, BEL etc dont move ahead in the process. HALs nearest competitor (would be) is just talking of being the next “Embraer” & ramping up civil aircraft capabilities in a phased manner, whereas HAL is firming up an investment of $5 Billion in manpower, capex (facilities, tooling, design capabilities!) apart from the excellent body of knowledge it has in design, development and certification!
Again, more “in the sky” talk, which doesn’t translate into anything specific and implementable. Lets talk details.
What exactly is bad about HAL structure, whats to be corrected and whats not. Based on what I know, its not perfect and has the typical GOI setup vs pvt set up pros and cons, but its not that different either from the vast majority of large Indian companies most of whom, public or private operate under the same restrictions and have the same people.
Thats the exact point I was making to Swerve.
Things wont change magically, with efficiency and what not, just because there are two “private companies” competing with each other. It’ll just be a duopoly, with the same issues and instead of one HAL, you’ll have two quasi HAL, with duplication and confusion.
Take a look at the number of times a certain firm up north of India has been reorganized into A-1 and A-2 and then A and now a commercial plane unit has been hived off..
The only firms which are truly different are the SMEs which work under a flat hierarchy, and are bigger risk takers. But then thats true of SMEs all across the world. They have to compete with larger fish and hence routinely push the limits when it comes to risk and reward.
And even there, SMEs are just at the Tier 2 or Tier 3 level. They are not at the level where DRDO say can approach them and say build us this entire complex high end unit, like the phased array radar on the AEW&C. Even there, the heavy lifting has been done by LRDE and CABs with partnership for specific systems with the SMEs etc. The body of knowledge that is there with public firms is immense. Unless the pvt firms invest disproportionately to catch up, its a tough call.
That is a lot of verbiage for such a simple statement of opinion. As for the view being down to gripes, that is your opinion. I am sure you would agree your allowed to have an opinion just as I am allowed to have mine.
Anyways gripes or not saying that HAL (the nationally owned aerospace company that the Gov of India points to when aircraft are to be made in India) is the best aerospace company in India is like saying that $unri$e Radio back in the 90s was the best asian radio station in the UK (it was the only 1 which wasnt pirate or local). or saying that $unri$e Tv was number 1 in the 90s (it was one of the only ones available in areas)).
TATA, Mahindra, Quest Aerospace, Kemrock, TAL, L&T etc will get to a point not so far in the distant future where they can start getting more international workshare and maybe even really competing in the world.
oh yeah bit of news below about LCA and LCH materials usage
Hexcel is a major supplier of prepreg, honeycomb and film adhesive to new Indian helicopter programmes include the Dhruv, Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) and Light Combat Helicopter (LCH). Composite parts manufactured by HAL for the ALH programme and made with Hexcel’s composite materials will be on show, including a Cover Assembly, a Duct Assembly, a Bracket Assembly, Outlet Assembly and Panel Assembly.
Gerard Chekherdemian, Hexcel’s Regional Sales Manager with responsibility for India as well as Russia and the Asia Pacific/Middle East region, explained:
mattMaybe it will look better when it is all painted, looks shouldnt matter though I guess.
mattJordan’s King Abdullah II Design and Development Bureau (KADDB) Awards Contract to ATK to Modify Two CASA-235 Military Transport Aircraft
(Source: ATK Alliant Techsystems; issued February 19, 2011)
ABU DHABI, United Arab Emirates — ATK announced it has received a contract from the King Abdullah II Design and Development Bureau (KADDB) of the Kingdom of Jordan to modify two of the country’s CASA-235 transport aircraft into highly-capable and cost-effective special mission aircraft, according to the combined modification designs of both KADDB and ATK.
its a pretty good idea…
mattThen the above view does not match those of the view or opinion or experience of HAL in the ether.
One entity saying something I would put to sour grapes but almost all entities in the ether saying the same ?
The problem Isnt what the government has mandated Hal to manage I think more about the internal management structure.
mattAgree. The way that aerospace works in India it does not reward capability.
mattHAL is a good build to print company they will build the planes. As for it being twenty years behind, Ive heard it is very institutionalized and almost kills free spirit wrt man management its ancient I gues tech wise not sure. Have heard through the ether that NAL is 20 years behind
mattIt’s a conversion of existing airframes. I don’t think there are enough left for the UK to get a batch.
Fair point, wonder if you could convert similarly the Super Tucono in a similar manner. Give each army unit or artillary unit command of a tucono ?
mattI am indeferent makes me neither happy nor sad as it is not my tax money, if i were a tax payer in India I would have been happy to know that money was wisely spent where possible.
mattThe big advantage with the F16, SH and the rafale is that they can be actually tested with a representative capability.
I mean the MRCA is a huge purchase…Who would buy a car without trying it ? Who would buy a house without visiting it ?
This is not really the case, if you always only bought for defense what you could see you would not have an advancement in weapons from the 1900’s…
The F16 and F18 would give the IAF significant disadvantage against the PLAAF would achieve nothing but fund US jobs. The technology in them is not really that exotic and nothing the IAF will not have with the PAK FA and the Su-30MKI upgrade. People may say it does not matter as it is a minor part of the IAF future future however this is not true now that the MMRCA number has potentially been increased to 200+ aircraft.
Buying F/A-18 or F-16 could only prove the existence of a mindset that India should have been gotten rid of a decade ago…
F/A-18 and F-16 are not technically capable enough to meet the challanges in Indias future and buying them could/may put the IAF and India at great risk…
mattMaybe we should discuss not only politics and endlessly the merits of each competitor but try to find out which type of aircraft the IAF lacks ?
Here is my take on the matter:
Light figher: covered with Tejas
Air superiority: covered with MKI/MiG 29 UPG
CAS: covered with Jaguar, MiG 27, M2K
Strike: partly covered with M2KTherefore I would go with the best strike fighter of the lot. Shortlisting of Rafale and Shornet.
Final decision would depend on the commercial negotiations.
I think th thought is not bad, but how do you identify the gap? Is it purely by type? If so than this (in a contest where most of the aircraft are multirole (MMRCA)) may get confusing. Would it be better to Identify what the IAF needs ?
mattSNIP————
Ashley Tellis’s report, titled ‘Dogfight — India’s MMRCA Decision’, highlights how the IAF has declined 29 fighter squadrons and only by 2017 will they be restored to the authorised 39.5 squadrons. He believes that cost, technology transfers and the facility to fit into the evolving IAF force structure will determine the choice. He says that while European aircraft are ‘technically superb’, US entrants with older designs are ‘best buys’. The US offer should be compensated, he adds, by generous technology transfer and assured access to fifth generation aircraft.
Union Minister for Defence AK Antony has, repeatedly and emotionally, said that merit not politics will decide the winning aircraft. Yet only the US has the will and capacity to help raise India’s global power profile.
Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s political instinct may let the F-18 plus fly into the ultimate deal.
By Ashok K Mehta
I am not in full agreement in some parts of the report and specifically the comparison of the Gripen NG with hte LCA. but anyway a lot of people are probably cringing at the fact that IAF will end up with an aircraft that is controversial even within its main home customer airforce/country..
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