No, if YOU bothered to read the Q&A’s and better yet read the previous RFP you would see that YOU are wrong. I say again, 1200 gal/min max fuel offload WAS NOT a requirement (THREESHOLD or OBJECTIVE) during the last solicitation.
you can dance all you want
you’re still wrong
but the previous OBJECTIVE was not to have a max fuel offload of 1200 gal/min.
oh really? then please explain to the audience following at home
a) what the previous objective was
b) what that objective translates to in GPM
No, if YOU bothered to read the Q&A’s and better yet read the previous RFP you would see that YOU are wrong. I say again, 1200 gal/min max fuel offload WAS NOT a requirement (THREESHOLD or OBJECTIVE) during the last solicitation.
you can dance all you want
you’re still wrong
but the previous OBJECTIVE was not to have a max fuel offload of 1200 gal/min.
then pray tell what was the previous objective?
BS. NOWHERE in the previous [round two] KC-X RFP was there a 1200 gal/min fuel offload requirement.
if you bothered to read the Q&A’s, you would know why you’re wrong
Sweetman’s comment from Ares
This was foredoomed. The trouble is that the AF knows, within one or two per cent, what the KC-767 and KC-330 will do: fuel offload at range, cargo capacity, fuel burn, maintenance costs, everything. So either you write a vague requirement that culminates in sorties needed to support a notional force mix, and aircraft needed to generate them – which then gets challenged because it’s vague – or you write a classic pounds-and-miles requirement that favors one or the other.
And at the bottom of it is the clear intent of Congress: that the USAF should conduct a fair and open competition which Boeing wins.
Lets see…In round two the fuel offload requirement was 900 gal/min, in round three is has been INCREASED to 1200 gal/min. So Boeing asked why the change & why 1200 gal/min.
Incorrect
requirement was always 1200gpm
last round they gave partial credit for not meeting the requirement
this time there is no partial credit
UPDATE 2-Northrop threatens to boycott US tanker contest
Defense analyst Loren Thompson of the Virginia-based Lexington Institute said both tanker teams were concerned about the Pentagon’s request for a fixed-price development contract that stretched over 18 years.
“To ask people to bid fixed prices on things that may not materialize until 18 years in the future is simply absurd,” he said. He said Boeing officials saw Northrop’s letter as “some sort of a maneuver,” but they shared the concerns about the amount of risk the contractors were expected to carry.
. . . .
EADS spokesman Guy Hicks said his company fully supported Northrop’s decision not to bid unless the terms were changed.
Senator Richard Shelby, a Republican who joined other Alabama lawmakers in criticizing the Pentagon’s tanker competition rules last month, said as written, the competition amounted to a “sham” and a “sole-source contract to Boeing.”
“If the Air Force wants a true competition — one that aims to procure the best product for our warfighter — it must fundamentally alter the current framework,” Shelby said.
Tanker Wars: Northrop No-Bid Threat Is Real
First, the draft solicitation really does impose huge risks on offerors by requiring fixed-price bids on items stretching 18 years into the future. Second, the proposed criteria for picking the future tanker are radically different from those used in the initial round of competition, in ways that make the solicitation significantly less favorable to Northrop’s bigger aircraft. Third, Northrop knows it has less political leverage to compel changes today than it did in the previous competition, because the Republican backers of its plane are now in the minority on Capitol Hill.
And then there is Wes Bush, the Northrop Grumman executive who signed the letter. Bush is slated to succeed CEO Ron Sugar at the end of the year, and he has never been as big a fan of the tanker bid as Sugar was.
. . .
His counterparts on the Boeing team are bemused by Bush’s move, because although they suspect a trick they too find the government’s proposed terms quite unappealing. That won’t deter them from bidding — or accepting a sole-source contract — but they know they could lose big money on the tanker program if their planning assumptions prove too optimistic. The track record on fixed-price development contracts is not good for contractors or their government customers, because it is so difficult to anticipate what problems might arise at the beginning of a program. Bush understands, and Boeing does too, that signing up to difficult terms might one day make the winner envy the loser.
Who do you trust when it comes to planning missions, the military or a Mfg?
I’m sure the USAF knows how to plan missions . . . with their current hardware.
But they can be . . . unimaginitive . . . when it comes to new possibilities.
They will say ‘well that’s the way we do it’, but you have to go back to ‘why is that the way you do it’ and it turns out the whole reasoning was to take advantage of certain capabilities or hide certain limitations of the hardware they’re using
in other words, their doctrines are TAILORED to the equipment they have
given new hardware, those assumptions are no longer valid
and once the equipment is in service, the air force WILL eventually change its doctrines to adapt to the new equipment, but getting them to see that beforehand can be a challenge.
That is a rather vague statement on NG’s part. I was looking for something more specific as to parts of the RFP.
reading through the Q&As I would say most of their concerns revolved around
1. doing things as the KC-135 had done them even though it would be better to do it a new way with a new plane (flight profiles, mission planning, whatnot)
2. not giving enough consideration to how its attributes affect the economics (such as basing fuel costs strictly on a fixed number of hours when they say they could accomplish the same mission in fewer flight hours than the KC-767 so charging them both the same number of hours is unfair) and not giving sufficient credit to cargo capabilities
In a written statement, the Defense Department said it regretted “that Northrop-Grumman and Airbus have taken themselves out of the tanker competition and hope they will return” when the request for proposal is issued, which it expects in January.
What changes do they want?
you can read their pdf letter in the link above, but here’s the relevant quote
. . . clear preference in the draft RFP for a smaller aircraft with a limited multirole capability and its imposition of a structure that places contractual and financial burdens on the company that we simply cannot accept
Northrop on Tanker: Try Again…Please!
Pulling from its playbook last time around, Northrop Grumman told Defense Dept. officials today that it would not bid for the USAF KC-X aerial tanker replacement program under the standing request for proposals (RFP).
The company, which paired with Europe’s EADS Airbus in what seems a perpetual tanker saga, indicated in a letter it could change its mind if the Pentagon makes substantial changes to the draft RFP.
“It is my hope that the department will elect to modify its approach to this procurement in a way that would enable us to offer our product for your consideration,” Bush wrote (See Northrop letter in PDF here.)
Possibly because once on task the limiting factor in the tankers performance (for example the most limiting being altitude in most cases) is the performance of the receiver aircraft during AAR.
i think they were talking about stuff like speed during climb to altitude that doesn’t impact AAR
KC-135 Replacement RFP Slip Raises
Changes to the source-selection plan for the U.S. Air Force’s $35-billion KC-X program are not likely to be substantial, and this could lead the procurement effort down a familiar path of contractors threatening not to bid or more calls for a split buy.
. . .
A delay is the most obvious impact of the wrangling. The final RFP was due out this week. Last week, Carter stopped short of committing to a release date. Contractors suggest it could be out as late as January.
. . .
One industry source warns that the U.S. would violate the WTO agreement if it proactively applied a penalty, referred to as “self-help,” before the dispute is resolved.
Why is fuel burn calculated for profiles based on what’s efficient for the KC-135 when the most efficient profile for our plane is different (no real answer)
How will airlift be valued (the mandatory airlift requirements are all that are needed)
Given greater anticipated usage of KC-X, annual flight hours (489) should be raised above current KC-135 usage. (no)
One offeror talks about 4 requirements they can’t meet:
1. cold soak quick start – the cost to qualify and re-FAA certify improved systems would be cost-prohibitive (tough)
2. Non-ODS (ozone depleting substance) fire suppression – no such FAA approved system (get FAA approval for one)
3. Anthropometric criteria – redesigning a flight deck that has been in use for years to meet similar yet slightly different criteria isn’t cost effective (require to accommodate current pilot population, but not necessarily anthropometric criteria)
4. Fuel tank inerting – center tanks done, but doing it for all tanks would be complex and expensive (tough)
Requirement to meet cargo handling without additional equipment (ie nose jacks to level floor (A330 but not A330F)) is hard (tough)
Fortunately there is a way out, pallet handling can be powered (no manual requirement)
IFARA is calculated fleet-wide but fuel-burn is per plane, shouldn’t fuel-burn be adjusted by IFARA? (ie if fewer planes are needed for a mission, that is a fuel savings) (no)
fuel burn is the only considered Operation & Support (O&S) cost. others such as depot maintenance should be included (no)
adjust fuel usage based on gallons per mission rather than gallons per minute since some planes can do missions quicker (no)
fuel costs are adjusted for inflation, but historically fuel costs have risen much faster than inflation so they should use that number instead (too bad)
additional ramp space in IFARA isn’t realistic plus IFARA doesn’t account for everything and requires additional ‘insights and observations’ as from the first RFP (ramp space is accounted for)
milcon representative bases should include more ANG/reserve bases that are smaller (tough)
a flyoff is necessary to properly evaluate certain requirements like handling, performance and tanker operations (no)
does the cargo floor need to accommodate high-weight (5730lb) pallets in every position (not necessarily)
Anyone know what aircraft has a receptacle that can reliably handle the 1200gpm flow?
edit: n/m I see irtusk already answered that. None of them can as of right now.
Well it’s also of note that KC-X is required to receive at 1200GPM.
So once KC-X is in service there will be at least one plane that can handle it 😉
This is another requirement Boeing can’t handle (currently) that NG/EADS can