EELightningSo both you and dj can’t or won’t answer the question.
As has been pointed out this isn’t the first time the US has moved the goalposts. The historical precedence is there.
Your assertation of irreverance is therefore in itself irrelevant.Care to write a simple 1) or 2) in answer to the original question?
I’d like them to answear the orginal question too, but for some reason I doubt they will, just bring up something else. At the end of the day, I don’t know what the problem is for the Americans, I mean, its not like we’re going to tell the Chinese some secrets or whatever……They already know them. :diablo: Ignore that last bit. But serious though, its just silly. To my knowledge, the British didn’t hold anything back when they got stuff like, radar, jet engine, Harrier & god knows what else. Hmmm I guess what works for one doesn’t for another…
EELightningOK lets run this by you….
I have a software package I’d like you to install to your computer, I assure you it is benign, and will not hamper your computers operation…:D
Although I havn’t finished it yet – It will be the best thing ever! its fifth generation protection designed to protect you against hostile external forces.
Testing has been a little slow – so if you could chip in a couple of hundred dollars I’ll give you a early delivery slot, please note early delivery slots are more expensive -but hey!!!..
I can’t tell you whats in the package, but rest assured its all good. :diablo:
The cost is only 50 dollars (in then year 1984 dollars, with testing and forcast cost growth its only about $100), outside accounting firms are estimating its over $250 a copy, but they are all wrong.. as explained by the our latest inhouse cost forcasts which is $300 minus the cost saving programs were initiating next week, where we “imagine” its going to save over $250 dollars per unit, so were right on track for the $50 target
Now how do you feel about that?.. Good deal or what?.Or using your ‘very little to worry about’ statement how about the UK holds all the software as part of its 5% funding of the program and restricts the US access.
Why don’t you try arguing this around the other way (just imagine the UK holding the software and the USA being ‘untrusted’) and see if it makes any sense.
Cheers
Very well said and very true. It’d be a very different matter if it were the other way round.
EELightningA better partnership deal (with the exception of JSF partner antions), yes. How else are they going to get anyone to seriously consider an inferior weapons system at higher cost (vs the superior weapons system at lower cost F-35)?
Well, thats your opinion and I respect that, we both have our own. But the reason why I started this thread was because I were just curious on why Canada was mentioned in the article, not to say what was more superior or inferior.
Geography, “from the Japanese to the east to the Canadians to the west” pretty much covers the entire market for modern fighters…
Weldone…
EELightningIs the source code that relevant to integrate weapons?
I mean, Amraams are integrated with the Typhoon, was the EF’s code given to the USA to complete the integration?
It’d be quite an interesting chit-chat between the Americans and British if/ or when we add ASRAAM, Meteor, Brimestone, Stormshadow etc to the F-35…
EELightning^Complete non story, I believe all of those ‘stunts’ were all training exercises, plus its fabulous PR for the armed forces.
Exactly! Its the greatest advert in the world, they should realise that…Plus its ruddy good fun to watch! 😀 Remember the Apache one when Jezza said; “The best helicopter in the world flown by the best pilots in the world, the British Army vs the best handling car in the world driven by an idiot”. lol Classic Jeremy!
Plus, Jeremy does a hell of a lot for Help For Heroes, so its no surprise that the British Armed Forces are on Top Gear (best show on TV, ever, I might add) quite often.
EELightningI wouldn’t want the foreign services getting a sneak peek at the F-22’s strategies and abilities. Save them as the ace in the hole, so to speak. Twenty years from now, when the newness is worn off and something better is available we can squander this ‘hidden quantity’. Until then please keep it safe from prying eyes.
Or….They got owned by those “inferior” European aeroplanes. :diablo:
Joking aside, if they’re that bl**dy good as the boast about all the time, then why not actually use them against foreign fighters. Load of pish! (if true). And like SteveJH said, they’ve had foreign pilots flying their wonder toy and its not like they’re going to keep quiet about the F-22’s capabilities when they get back to their own airforce/squadrons.
EELightningF-22’s didn’t want to play?…
“The F-22s did not participate in ATLC. They were planned in as part of the exercise, then shortly beforehand they were withdrawn. Six jets were still deployed to Al Dhafra but they did not come out to play with the other boys and girls (OK, there were no girls). The USAF representatives at the show refused to acknowledge the aircrafts’ presence or explain what they were doing in the UAE. If anyone can enlighten us…”
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009/11/dxb09-sheikh-rattles-aermacchi.html
EELightningHe says Eurofighter is “more than willing to discuss partnerships in terms of how we advance this aircraft” and how it “evolves”.
“We realise there is a great interest across the world from the Japanese in the east to the Canadians in the west. Nobody wants to buy aircraft at full cost. They want to have technology transfer and want to be part of the team.”
To translate…Eurofighter is “more than willing to discuss partnerships” BECAUSE Eurofighter realizes that nations don’t want to buy aircraft at full cost but DO want technology transfer & to be part of the team. AKA Eurofighter realizes that if it is going to have much chance at further Typhoon exports it is going to HAVE to ‘spice up’ the deal with partnerships (technology transfer & team membership). Before the F-35, Eurofighter could rely on the Typhoon’s superior capability to sell it but in a world where the F-35 is an option, they can’t do that.
I see, sorry, I thought you were quoting me about something else. But yes, I already know that Eurofighter or more than willing to discuss partnerships agree on ToT etc, and why shouldn’t they, but whatever you say about your F-35, Eurofighter are always going to offer the better deal.
What interest would Canada have in the Eurofighter Typhoon? What does it offer them that the F-35 does not?
Well, I dont know that because I haven’t looked into their needs, I was just curious why Canada was mentioned in the article.
EELightningI think you are mistaking a comment concerning interest in technology transfer & being part of a team with interest in the Eurofighter Typhoon.
Not sure I understand what you mean there?
It’s amusing that the F-35 fanboys pitch in and ask for no ‘fanboy comments.’ :rolleyes:
In answer to the OP………..,
Japan is a Typhoon campaign, Canada isn’t.
Japan could conceivably have a requirement for both Typhoon and F-35, and it’s near term requirement could have been written around the Typhoon, and the aircraft represents a perfect solution to Japan’s industrial requirements too, in a way that F-22/F-35 cannot. The four JASDF officers who flew the aircraft were reportedly complete ‘converts’ after their evaluation.
The problem is that (EH101 notwithstanding) selecting Typhoon would mark a major break with Japan’s established procurement practises, and Japan will come under almost unbearable political pressure from its most important political partner not to do so.
Canada is not a Typhoon campaign, nor even an official ‘prospect’, though the more optimistic within EF GmbH believe that a requirement could still emerge, as Canada’s commitment to the F-35 becomes shakier.
Certainly, Typhoon meets certain aspects of the Canadian requirement much better than the F-35 does, though it does not offer the same ‘Day One’ capability except by using stand off weapons, and it does not offer the same levels of interoperability (though that’s easy to over-state).
At the moment, Canada is a very, very, very slender prospect.
Before I read this article I didn’t believe Canada were interested in the Typhoon, nor do I believe so now although I think it would be a very good choice for them, it just caught my attention when Canada was mentioned in the article thus thinking it would be an interesting topic to discuss.
I agree with you on the, Japan could have both types though, i.e Typhoon and F-35.
The first bit you wrote make me giggle too. 😀
EELightningLast I heard, about Oman that is, BAE Systems? (correct me if I’m wrong, please) were in the closing stages of talks about selling Typhoons to Oman, then the French came into the situation about selling the Rafale to Oman, that was a few months ago now, haven’t heard anything since and to my Knowledge, again, correct me if I’m wrong but I’ve never heard anything of Oman being interested in the F-16.
“Typhoons and Rafales are bad choices because of cost.”
Well as the saying goes, you get what you pay for.
EELightningYes, but will the Typhoon, Rafale, and Gripen NG even be in production in another 10 plus years??? Personally, I have my doubts unless they win a big order like the MMRCA.
Which can also be said every other aircraft, American or not, I mean, the F-22 got a bullet in the head at 170+, yes just the US is useing it but still. I wouldn’t have doubts about the European aircraft just yet because theres a long way to go and anything can happen. Besides, the guy(s) at Eurofighter for example say that they plan to have an AESA and Meteor on Typhoon by 2015 which isnt that far away and also, don’t forget that the European aircraft are new on the scene, so give them some time.
EELightningProblem is if you starting using peanutes to get peanuts you will have lots of monkeys everywhere..
As long its not that monkey from Family Guy, you now the one? The evil Monkey?…A bit like the one that lives under my bed! Muahahahahaaaaaaaaa! :diablo:
EELightningEurofighter: AESA Decision By February. Also talks of adopting the new radar and the new Meteor missile by 2015.
Industry hopes to deliver proposals to the Typhoon partner nations to fit an active electronically scanned radar on the fighter by the end of the year according to Eurofighter chief executive Enzo Casolini.A decision by Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain on whether to proceed could come by February, he said.
Some industry executives thouh wonder whether funding constraints amongst the partner nations might make that approval date slip to the right.
Speaking at the show Casolini said he believed that adopting the new radar technology and the new MBDA Meteor ram-jet missile by 2015 is a fundamental requirement for current users and the aircraft’s future export prospects.
Eurofighter is already embroiled in key export campaigns in India and Japan where an AESA radar capability is essential.
Saudi Arabia,Typhoon’s biggest export customer to date, would fall in behind what the British Royal Air Force does, he said.
The British have been the strongest supporters of AESA technology for Typhoon for operational and export reasons, followed by Germany.
The Eurofighter boss said he was confident industry could deliver an “affordable and technically feasible” proposal to the partner nations.
A study involving industry and the partner nations has focused on two options. One is converting the current mechanically scanned Captor radar to electronic scan known as Captor-E.
Casolini said though his perception is that a new Selex Galileo radar which uses novel swashplate technology will be adopted.
A Selex radar using the same technology has already been selected by Saab for the Gripen NG fighter development being offered in Brazilian and Indian fighter competitions.
Swashplate technology allows the radar to reposition, giving it a wider scan than current AESA systems offered by U.S. manufacturers.
http://defensenews.com/blogs/dubai-air-show/2009/11/eurofighter-aesa-decision-by-february/
EELightningEurofighter partners near agreement on AESA radar
The Eurofighter partner nations are moving towards an agreement to integrate an active electronically scanned array radar with the type, as discussions over Tranche 3A production near a conclusion.
“We are talking at great length, and there is a gradual coming together,” says Bob Mason, vice-president marketing and sales for Selex Galileo, prime contractor and design authority for the Eurofighter Typhoon’s current mechanically scanned Captor radar. “A lot of things are pulling E-scan to the fore, and we expect some sort of agreement within two to three months.”
EADS conducted test flights with the Euroradar consortium’s Caesar active array using a Eurofighter development aircraft in 2007, and Selex has also previously supplied AESA systems to the UK Ministry of Defence for evaluation in fast jet types such as the Panavia Tornado.
A prototype of the company’s Vixen 1000E/Raven ES05 is also now in flight test with Saab’s Gripen Demo airframe, with this viewed as a de-risking activity for a possible larger version for the Typhoon.
“E-scan was previously looked at as risky and potentially costly. Now the risk of doing nothing is worse,” says Alastair Morrison, deputy senior vice-president radar and advanced targeting for Selex Galileo. “It’s in everyone’s interest to make this work.”
The new technology also brings advances in detection range and performance, for example by operating “virtually instantaneously” in both air-to-air and air-to-ground modes. Selex has also developed a “swashplate repositioner”, which enables the normally fixed AESA array to be moved laterally by +/-100°.
“Germany now believes a repositioner of some sort is desirable,” says Mason.
An AESA version of the Captor could also potentially be retrofitted to Tranche 2 aircraft for Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK.
Separately, Mason says Selex is now investigating wider uses for AESA radar technology, including possible communications and electronic attack modes. “We are looking at all applications,” he says.
Gulf States Eye 50-100 Eurofighter Jets – CEO
Eurofighter GmbH, a consortium set up to manage the development and production of the Eurofighter Typhoon weapon system, expects to place between 50 and 100 fighter jets with Arab Gulf states, the company’s chief executive said Tuesday.
“It could vary from 50 to 100 Eurofighters depending on how optimistic I am,” Enzo Casolini told reporters at a press conference at the Dubai Air show.
Casolini, when asked which Gulf states are looking at the program and over what timeframe, said: “I wouldn’t like to add anything to that.”
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20091117-700423.html
Next generation encryption technology to be fitted into Eurofighter Typhoon
The Eurofighter Typhoon will be the first aircraft in the world to be equipped with next generation encryption technology called Aircraft Crypto Variable Management Unit (ACVMU) a variant of Ectocryp Steel.
Delivered with the support of Raytheon Systems Ltd, the technology has been developed by crypto experts EADS Defence and Security, Ectocryp steel is cutting edge technology that has been designed to manage electronic key distribution for multiple communication systems on board an aircraft using one secure single point.
Traditionally, modern military aircraft and ground installations require multiple communications systems to enable them to operate in a network centric environment; these systems include radio, IFF, GPS and data links.
The need for high demands of security also requires multiple cryptographic protection devices, each of which have different requirements for key variables and fill devices.
This has made key management a time consuming and labour intensive task, often requiring erasure and re-keying between missions when aircraft are powered down.
Against a backdrop of reducing staff numbers and response times, there is a requirement to minimise the key management burden without compromising security.
Ectocryp Steel allows crews to pre-load and store multiple mission scenarios. This helps improve mission responsiveness, reduces key filling errors and also brings exceptional through-life cost savings.
The typical through-life costs for an aircraft fleet of 350 over 20 years without using Ectocryp Steel costs over £200m – compared to approximtely £26m when using Ectocryp Steel.
The technology has a suite of approved security mechanisms and has a full erase function.
http://www.responsesource.com/releases/rel_display.php?relid=51815
EELightningMy good friend the US didn’t loose in South Korea. So, why did the South Koreans opt for the F-15K with all those strings. If, the Typhoon or Rafale offered so much more???
Again, politics. According to sources at the time, again theres a few about the net if you look, Typhoon was the better aircraft according to them, but still they opted for the F-15K. Its pretty obvious the South Koreans choose that aircraft just to keep the Americans happy.
But anyway, seems we both think differently, lets keep politics out of it shall we & agree to disagree.
Nobody offers “Full Partnerships”! Though, some have fewer strings. Yet, that has not won out in the majority of the cases.
Well, the guys at Eurofighter seem to offer full partnership. I’m sure if you take a look on the old thread you’ll see plenty of reliable sources saying so.
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