Fresh out of the Vesti newpaper,Friday May 12th 2006
The Defence Minister of the Union of Serbia and Montenegro Zoran Stankovic and Investment Minister Velimir Ilic have announced that the present military airfields Ponikve by Uzice and Ladjevci by Kraljevo,will be reconstructed and modified to suit the civilian airplanes as well.
The first phase of reconstruction is worth 3,5€ million and it will comprise the building of an airport tower and organisation of the flight control,taking in mind that the initial flghts would be performed by smaller airplanes – Minister Ilic has said during the visit to Ladjeci airfield.
Second phase of the reconstruction,in which 20€ million will be invested,will include lengthening of the runway to 2 300m in order for larger passanger and cargo airplanes to be able to land there. The regional roads will also be repaired in order to enable easier access to the airfield.
As you see from the drawings,Ladjevci runway is presently 2200 m long.So they will extend it for another 100 meters only?Hmm.
Ponikve airfield has as i think the longest runway in the Balkans which enables any sized airplanes to land there.
Altogether, these are good news for regional tourism and industry.
Really?!?! I’ve got congressional reports and NATO reports saying that they destroyed about 2/3 or our Sa-2 and Sa-3 units. I know who accurate those latter reports are and all, but still…you’d like to think they were somewhat credible. :diablo:
Well as for Sa-2s,i really think that their most probably use was as decoys,if they were used durin the conflict at all.It is much chepaer to have them destroyed then scrap them:) Also, each bomb dropped on a decoy saves somewhere a human life and a piece of valuable equipment.
You’re beating yourself up over nothing. We did a great job with what we had and nobody could have asked better of the AD/AF. Again, Even if we only had SA-2/3/6 SAMs, were fighting against the Europeans, and the US didn’t get involved…I would have bet the shirt off my back that NATO/EU would never had strolled into kosovo. The American members on this forum should be proud of the fact that all AD arms of the world, set up their networks and units in a direct counter move to American Air Supremacy. If you train to fight the very best on this earth…true you may not beat them, but you’ve got a really good chance to bloody his sick little cousin up a little.
I also agree that we did as best as we could under the circumstances and taking in fact the numerical and technological disadvantage.Some people disagre however but i do not care. There is no more to add to that.Inovation skill of the engineers and solders was cruical to the survival of the people and equipment at the time. I have a huge respect for these people.
You’re right, there are more than 12 radars in country, but only 12 long distance radars of 200km+. However these radars are also guidance b/c they are the first line of defense in the integrated digital network associated with SAM units. 90% of 12 is 10.8…take it for what you want to believe. Either they have 10 or they have 11. :diablo:
This number is refering to the long range radars only as you mentioned. Example is the one at Kopaonik and at Zlatibor nowdays.
You’re right, they were targeted by 15 cruise missiles, 13 air-to-ground missiles, 29 anti-radiation missiles and 98 bombs. That means that each one was targeted 13 seperate times or once every six days. Not bad since NATO only had 7 days of “optimal” flight weather the first 22 days of combat. Also not bad since they had thousands of other targets like the hundreds of tanks, artillery, IFCs, APCs, and mortars they destroyed. :diablo:
I don’t know how many ARMs were fired so I’ll stay away from that comment until I can find an exact number.
As you can read in the PDF file attached,NATO claims 4 538 SEAD sorties conducted during the operation Allied Force,which were abut 21,5% of the total sorties.
Most of the ARMs did not reach their targets as:
1) the long range radars were rarely used because most of them needed a lot of time to move to an alternate position or coudlnt be moved at all!
2) they were switched on for very short time periods
3) mobile radars were more frequently used ,although having smaller range and ability to control only sectors,and could in the case of an ARM launched could change position quickly (ARMs these days are homing to the last position of the radar emissions detected).
Yeah, ok…or it’s a portable Sa-3 goa with it’s 2 rails. Judges anyone?
That is an Sa-6 system,although lacking missiles. It was either unarmed at the time of destruction (by an A-10 most probably with the GAU-8 as the GBU would have completely destroyed the vehicle) or was destroyed by the crew before pulling back out of Kosovo. You can see below a photo of an Iraqi Sa-6 exploding and what happens in that case.
As the PDF states, 3 out of 26 SA-6 batteries were destroyed and 10 out of 41 SAM radars. Now ,does not an Sa-6 battery also consist of radars.Why are they mentioning SAM radars separately?
P.S:I would not let those kids climb the Sa-6 and tanks in Kosovo.They might be loaded with DU rounds.Dont want anything to happen to them you know 😮
Why the rolleyes?!?! BUKs and TORs were shown on the news operating in the countryside. Hard to believe Kapedani?
Do not speculate so openly,as he will use it againts you.I have also seen the video on BK TV although you can never know if it was filmed in Serbia or not.
Djnik,
I was particularly interested by what you brought here about the MiG 19 brief testing in Yugoslavia. I just have the impression that the BW pic you posted depicts a MiG 19P or PM and not a MiG 19S as your nicely done model. Any more clarification on that rare bird?
You got that one right.As there was no other available Mig-19 model (apart from Trumpeter one)to me for this project at the time, i sticked with what i had.
Well the information about this bird are quite rare.And still,some people argue that it might have been a PSed photo.Nontheless, it is an interesting topic to further research.
All accounts of the Sa-2 were that they were reinstated to active units before Allied Force. Most of the 178 missiles fired at NATO were high elevation missiles from these systems. Let me find that source. Read the Janes report after the FAS report. The numbers are somewhat similar to each other. The Janes report also claims Serbian Media showing Tor and Buk systems operated by serbian AD units in the local countryside. Whether they have all of those “extra” systems or not wasn’t my point. Sorry, I was just trying to source my “72 sa-6 systems” claim. Just got carried away with lots of extra stuff.
I have heard otherwise,that they were retired before the Allied force. Namely,Sa-2 system is not road mobile and they would have been particularly easy targets to destroy. Maybe they were used as decoys in that purpose?
I was convinced that most of the “heavy” missiles fired at NATO airplanes were from Sa-3s. The units operating these systems were quite busy and were changing position twice per day and also the missiles for this system were in abundance.
Well,i woul not trust Janes too much. If we had Tor and Buk systems,they would have been far more effective than Sa-6 for example and the amount of aircraft shot down might have been different.But that is another story i do not wish to go in to again.
FAS reported that The Serbian AD:
There is also maps and charts of the quantity and locations of these systems; The link no longer works to FAS Serbian AF so I had to use my hard copies to post this. Sorry for any gramatical mistakes.
Missile Range-km Launcher
Inventory
Sa-5 Gammon 250 some
Sa-2 Guideline Dvina 45 40
Sa-11 Gadfly 9K37M1 Buk-1M 28 ?some
Sa-6 Gainful Kub 20 70
Sa-3 Goa ZRK S-125 Neva 20 60
Sa-15 Gauntlet 9K331 Tor 12 ?some
Sa-13 Gopher ZRK-BD Strela-10 5 numerous
Sa-9 Gaskin 9K31 Strela-1 4 numerous
Sa-14 Gremlin 9K34 Strela-3 4 numerousCurrent Sa-2 locations include:
Subotica
Novi Sad
Belgrade (also the Sa-5 is reported to be deployed here)
Valjevo
Kragujevac
Uzice
Nis
Podgorica
The FAS report is extremeley inaccurate and pre-1999 in every respect. Do not trust what they write as it has not been updated for a very long time,as far as i can remember.
Sa-2 was pulled out of Service service shortly after the mid 1990s and there is no S-200,S-11 and Sa-15 in Serbian AF and AD service.
well what i read on wikepedia i read that the Block 60s cost 26.9 million dollars per unit. If a fleet of 24 planes that means it would cost 645.6million US dollars that would be a lot better then 750million what 127th knights wrote. The increase of 187million US dollars in 2010 i think it would be a bit stronger beacuse economy might get a bit stronger and it could be 200million US.
Block 60 costs around $40 million.
You can never precisely predict how the budget will increase in the future.Dont take things for granted as there is always a chance for it to be less than predicted!
Currently we operate 70-90 Sa-6 systems. 4 units per battery / 3 batteries per regiment (puk) / 3 regiments per brigade (brigada) So we would need 72 new systems?!?! Is that right 4*3*3*2=72…yeah that’s right. (Two brigades “worth of units”)
Are you sure about the number of Sa-6 systems currently in service?It seems quite high to me :confused:
Yay, I’m gonna go steal my laptop back from my kid and play Rome Total War Now!
You ought to play it in multiplayer with your kid:P
Yes, launching and during conflicts 😉
G-4 over Varazdin,Croatia.
More photos to follow later today.
Hi, everybody!
This is my first post and I want to tell you how great your forum and community is!Great pictures djnik, and as I can see there’s even R-60s mounted on Praga vehicles?! And what is that behind them, modification including first stage or only some kind of support?
MadMax SAM :)!
First of all,welcome to the forum 🙂
Speaking of the modification behind the R-60s and R-73s you mentioned,it is a booster engine from 128mm and 240 mm MLRS missiles respectively.These were connected to the R-60s and R-73s with a mechanism that,after the booster ran out of fuel,was made in such a way to activate the engine of the AA missiles.
For example for the R-73 missile, during the first-launch phase,the booster works for 1,1-1,3 seconds and then the AA missile separates from the booster and its engine is activated by the above mentioned mechanism.Second phase consist of the time when the engine is activated untill the end of its work and lasts 4,1-6,8 seconds.
Here is the text about these vehicle launched R-60s and R-70s for Serbian speaking members on this forum.Maybe one of them has some free time at hand over the weekend and can translate this text to english? My girlfriend is coming over so airplanes have to be put aside for some time if you know what i mean;)
Brzo od ideje do praktičnog rešenja
Polazni elementi za realizaciju ovakve ideje su već bili realizovani u vreme raspada bivše zajedničke države, kroz jedan program integracije IC-samonavođene rakete R-13M s aviona MiG-21 na zemaljski lanser. Za lansirnu platformu je iskorišćeno vozilo »praga«, na čiju je topovsku veznu konstrukciju umesto topa kalibra 30 mm ugradjen lanser IC-samonavodjene rakete. Sistem je opremljen upravljačkom kutijom i blokom za napajanje i dat mu je kôdni naziv RL-1 (raketni lanser br. 1). U cilju verifikacije sistema RL-1 izvršeno je više opitnih lansiranja na jednom privremenom poligonu, a kao meta je korišćena osvetljavajuća minobacačka granata kalibra 120 mm. Tokom verifikacije je iskrslo nekoliko ozbiljnih problema, uglavnom zbog starosti raketa, npr. aktiviranje blizinskog upaljača, a time i bojeve glave, ubrzo nakon lansiranja, koji su »u hodu« rešavani.
Srećom, ovog puta su jugoslovenskim vazduhoplovcima na raspolaganju bile mnogo moćnije IC-samonavodjene rakete, kakve su R-60MK i R-73E s aviona MiG-29, koje su imale mogućnosti sverakursnog dejstva, ili bolje rečeno, mogle su da gadjaju ciljeve u dolasku i odlasku, a uz to nisu imale problema ni sa resursom, ni sa tehničkom ispravnošću ključnih sklopova. Fizički posmatrano, prva nedoumica je bila – da li će rakete pri lansiranju sa zemlje imati dovoljnu početnu brzinu, koja će obezbediti zadovoljavajući energetski potencijal za ostvarenje manevarskih karakteristika potrebnih za »hvatanje« cilja u vazdušnom prostoru. Pri tome kao važnu činjenicu treba imati na umu, da svaka raketa lansirana s aviona u trenutku lansiranja ima početnu brzinu jednaku brzini leta aviona, dok tog početnog impulsa nema pri lansiranju sa zemlje.
Glavni akteri ideje i projekta su bili iz 177. vazduhoplovne baze, iz Vazduhoplovnog zavoda »Moma Stanojlović« i iz Vazduhoplovnog opitnog centra, a nešto kasnije su im se pridružili i stručnjaci iz Vojnotehničkog instituta. Radi se o veoma skromnim ljudima, koji u suštini nerado pričaju o onome šta su uradili, a većina njih čak nije želela ni da im se imena pomenu. Ipak, kroz njihove nadimke – Jare, Bruja, Gluvi, Dragi, Caki, Cvija, Dača, Era, Dunja, Milan, Sloba, deda Voja… mnogi saradnici će ih prepoznati. Bio je to jedan homogen tim, koji je teoriju i praktična znanja objedinio u konkretan projekat, kroz koji je realizovao više tipova novih pasivnih raketnih sistema, a oni su svoje oznake dobili u zavisnosti od tipa rakete koja je na njima bila integrisana. Kroz praktičnu realizaciju novih raketnih sistema dokazan je jedan stari aksiom, da mogućnosti upotrebe jedne vrste oružja nikada nisu konačne. Ovom inovacijom je dokazano, da se odredjene mogućnosti toplotne glave za samonavodjenje mogu pretvoriti u jednu vrstu pasivnog sistema za pretraživanje vazdušnog prostora – skeniranje i detekciju cilja sa zemlje. Naravno, pri tome se mora imati na umu, da je »vidno« polje rakete veoma usko, da je za odredjivanje položaja cilja u vazdušnom prostoru potrebno odrediti njegovu daljinu, da cilj mora da ima dovoljan toplotni kontrast. Zbog svih navedenih problema, za izradu novog raketnog sistema je naročito bila interesantna raketa R-73 (AA-11 Archer), čiji raketni motor omogućuje startovanje i izlazak na supersoničnu brzinu leta, bez početne brzine. Zahvaljujući toj činjenici, bilo je jasno, da će raketa moći da iskoristi svoje sisteme gasodinamičkog i aerodinamičkog upravljanja u funkciji brzine rakete. Naime, pri malim brzinama (npr. pri lansiranju) glavni sistem za vođenje rakete je gasodinamički, a pri velikim brzinama (na putanji) – aerodinamički. Granica upotrebe jednog ili drugog sistema je fleksibilna, a na jednom delu putanje oba sistema rade zajedno i sinhronizovano.
Ubrzo je realizovan najpre sistem RL-2 (integracija rakete R-60MK na vozilo »praga«); zatim RL-3 (integracija rakete R-60MK na oklopni transporter BRDM-2); pa onda RL-4 (integracija rakete R-73 na vozilo »praga«). Sva tri sistema su probno gadjanje izvršila 13. aprila 1999. godine na poligonu, a za metu je iskorišćeno provereno rešenje – osvetljavajuća minobacačka granata kalibra 120 mm. Rezultat je bio izvanredan – sva tri sistema su ostvarila direktan pogodak u metu! Već narednog dana su sva tri sistema uvedena u operativnu upotrebu.
Sistem RL-4 se može iskoristiti za sverakursno dejstvo po ciljevima u vazduhu na daljinama do 5 km, odnosno do visine od 5 km, koji lete maksimalnom brzinom do 300 m/s, a upotrebiv je za dejstva u povoljnim meteorološkim uslovima, danju i noću. Raketa se postavlja na avionski lanser, koji se preko prelazne metalne konstrukcije vezuje za osnovu (kolevku) topa PAT-30/2 na vozilu »praga«. Za potrebe hlađenja fotootpornika rakete je ugrađena posebna boca s azotom, a upravljanje lansiranjem se vrši preko specijalne upravljačke kutije. Za upravljanje IC-glavom rakete upotrebljen je mikrokontroler i razvijen poseban softver, kojim je omogućeno automatsko pretraživanje vazdušnog prostora kroz IC-glavu rakete. Usmeravanje rakete prema cilju vrši operater pomoću električnog sistema za upravljanje postoljem topa na vozilu. Operater sistema nosi specijalni šlemafon, u koji stiže specijalni zvučni signal s upravljačke kutije o zahvatu toplotne glave za samonavođenje rakete. Signal o zahvatu cilja se istovremeno pojavljuje i na displeju ispred operatera, na kojem počinje da svetli sijalica »zahvat«. Pritiskom na taster, koji se nalazi na ručici za usmeravanje rakete, vrši se lansiranje rakete. Pri tome let rakete ima dve faze: fazu rada raketnog motora (aktivni deo putanje) i fazu inercijalnog leta nakon prestanka rada motora (pasivni deo putanje). Nakon lansiranja raketa se samonavodi na cilj pomoću svog autonomnog sistema za upravljanje. Kada se ona nadje na odgovarajućoj daljini od cilja, aktivira se blizinski upaljač, koji izaziva eksploziju bojeve glave.
Nove modifikacije
Već nakon prvih dejstava na realne ciljeve u vazduhu je utvrdjeno, da raketama nedostaje domet (jer su avioni leteli na visinama iznad 5000 m), što je bila posledica malog impulsa pri lansiranju, odnosno nedostatka početne brzine koju raketa ima pri lansiranju s aviona. Rešenje je konvergiralo ka jedino mogućem – na rakete treba ugraditi buster-motore! Rekli bismo – lako reći, ali kako realizovati? Dovitljivim vazduhoplovcima nije trebalo mnogo vremena da rešenje i konkretizuju, a u tu ideju su najviše verovali Dragi, Caki, Sima, Ostoja, Pedja… Ubrzo je na rakete dodan buster-raketni motor nevođenih raketa kalibra 240 mm, koji je s raketom R-73 spojen preko jednog medjusklopa. Taj medjusklop je imao ulogu mehaničke veze i imao je zadatak, da nakon završetka rada bustera aktivira raketni motor rakete R-73. Nakon šest probnih lansiranja, rešenje je verifikovano i 18. maja 1999. godina je sistem uveden u operativnu upotrebu pod kôdnim nazivom RL-4M.
Paralelno s modifikacijom sistema RL-4, rađena je i modifikacija sistema RL-2, kod kojeg je za buster rakete R-60 iskorišćen raketni motor nevodjene rakete, kalibra 128 mm. Za verifikaciju ovog sistem su izvršena samo tri probna lansiranja, nakon čega je i ovaj novi sistem, s kôdnom oznakom RL-2M, žurno uveden u operativnu upotrebu, iako svi tehnički problemi nisu bili potpuno eliminisani.
Za razliku od baznih sistema RL-2 i RL-4, na modifikovanim verzijama sa buster-motorima let rakete ima tri faze. Kako to izgleda u stvarnosti objasnićemo na primeru sistema RL-4M, čija prva faza započinje aktiviranjem bustera, nastavlja se silaskom rakete sa lansera, a završava se za 1,1-1,3 sekunde, tj. trenutkom kada dođe do razdvajanja rakete i bustera, i pripale raketnog motora rakete. Na kraju te prve faze leta raketa ima brzinu oko 410 m/s. Druga faza leta obuhvata vreme od trenutka pripale raketnog motora rakete i traje 4,1-6,8 s, tj. do kraja njegovog rada. Na početku ove faze se vrši stabilizacija sistema za upravljanje u trajanju od 0,3 s, a onda nastaje deo kada su uključeni svi sistemi za samonavodjenje i upravljanje, uključujući i gasodinamičko upravljanje pomoću interceptora. Treća faza leta nastaje od trenutka prekida rada raketnog motora rakete, kada raketa leti po inerciji koristeći višak energetskog potencijala, koji je »prikupila« u prethodne dve faze leta. U trećoj fazi leta upravljanje se vrši isključivo pomoću krmila.
Najveća prednost pomenutih raketnih sistema je potpuna pasivnost – tokom pretraživanja zone lansiranja, za vreme lansiranja, kao i za vreme navodjenja raketa na cilj nema nikakvog emitovanja elektromagnetskog zračenja, što im daje odredjena »stelt« svojstva. Međutim, ova prednost je »mač sa dve oštrice«, jer pri autonomnom zahvatu cilja pomoću toplotne glave za samonavođenje raketa ostaje bez dva ključna parametra o cilju – o daljini i visini na kojoj se nalazi. Ukoliko se cilj nadje u dometu sistema, onda teško da može izbeći pogodak. Medjutim, u praksi se pokazalo, da je osetljivost glave za samonavodjenje vrlo visoka i da je u pojedinim slučajevima ona izvršila zahvat ciljeva na daljinama reda 25 km i na visinama od 15 km, što je znatno izvan energetskih mogućnosti sistema. S obzirom, da je toplotna glava za samonavodjenje rakete u režimu za automatsko pretraživanje vršila samostalno zahvatanje cilja, u nekoliko slučajeva je raketa otišla sa lansera u prazno, jer se »polakomila« za ciljem, koji nije mogla da dostigne.
I bez ulaženja u detalje tehničkih rešenja, može se zaključiti, da je za rekordno kratko vreme razvijena čitava familija pasivnih raketnih sistema, koji su se odlikovali jednostavnošću, mobilnošću, prikrivenim dejstvom i novim potencijalom, kakav nisu očekivali ni piloti u vazduhu, ni planeri na zemlji. Bez obzira na neke nedostatke raketnih sistema tipa »RL«, grupa vazduhoplovnih entuzijasta je demonstrirala visok nivo stručnosti i znanja, kreativnosti, snalažljivosti, inventivnosti, odlučnosti i hrabrosti, da u najtežim danima izvede tehnički poduhvat, vredan divljenja i pamćenja.
Interesantno je, da su najveću sumnju izrazili i najveći otpor razvoju pomenutih sistema pružali upravo oni, koji su pre rata bili neposredno zaduženi za nabavku, osavremenjivanje i operativnu upotrebu raketnih sistema PVO. Pod takvim uticajima, nakon završetka rata razvoj raketnih sistema na bazi avionskih IC-samonavođenih raketa je obustavljen, a proizvedeni sistemi su demontirani i prepušteni zubu vremena.
Finally photos of the R-73s mounted on Praga vehicles.
Also does anyone know what the last photo represents?
Different radars.Photos taken on the same day.If someone has more time to identify them precisely it would be appretiated.
Photos of SA-3 SAM components at Nikinci proving grounds taken on 30.06.2004.
Photos of SA-6 SAM components at Nikinci proving grounds taken on 30.06.2004.
Djnik,
You’ve excelled even your very high standards! I think you should be writing for aviation publications and getting paid for it and not posting stuff like that on here… Although I am grateful!
Thank you for your words of support ink!
Well, i havent been “contacted” by any of the aviation publication companies,although i would write for them gladly! Aviation offers a wide range of interesting topics that are just waiting to be put into words and photos.
And its not all about the money…ima necega i u zlatu 😀