djnikAs for the claim that a single squardon would be enough. Yugoslavia operated dozens of squadrons of fighter jets. I know, I know, Serbia is smaller. But still, if our new fighter jet is to replace the J-22, Mig-21, and Mig-29… That is about ~40 J-22’s, about ~40 Mig-21’s, and 5 Mig-29’s, that’s 85 aircraft that need replacing. Do you really think a single squardon of 12 or 14 aircraft can replace 85 aircraft without a VERY significant loss of capability? Assuming we replace them with a ratio of 1:2, we still need a minimum of 40+ aircraft. I know this is not something that is economically feasible tomorrow, but in 2015 why not? Until then the Mig-21’s, Mig-29’s, and J-22’s will have to do.
The fact is that not all of the 85 aircraft you mentioned above are in flying condition and i am sure Serbia does not plan to keep such a high of airplanes anyways. J-22s will be phased out of service in the future and instead of them attack helicopters will be purchased. Mig-21s are going in the future and thats for sure and as for the Mig-29,it might be reintroduced in newev or upgraded versions. We do not need more than a squadron for air defence as we,as our neigbours are going to purchase a similar quantity.And lets hope there is no more war.
djnikJust a quick question: Does anyone remember how much the MiG-29M2s offered to Austria were? I know the Austrians were going to get them in some sort of debt for weapons exchange but I do remember at least one article quoting the cost of the aircraft themselves.
From Airpower.at: http://www.airpower.at/news01/nfg0213e/nfg0213e.htm
Russia has gone to great lengths to overcome the main arguments against the MiG-29 – that the supply of spare parts and support is unreliable and that the MiG does not meet NATO standards for interoperability. Russia also offered a very tempting proposal, particularly in terms of cost. The SMT sells for roughly half the price of competing Western aircraft. Moscow upped the stakes from simple competitive marketing last September when the Russian Finance Ministry presented a plan for the delivery of 30 MiG-29s, valued at $1.2 billion, which could be paid for between 50 to 90% in debt reduction and with high offsets for the rest. Negotiations have reportedly been underway since then, involving Russia, Austria, and Germany.
Russia’s foreign debt amounts to approximately $48.3 billion, of which it owes about $2.84 billion to Austria.
djnikI must agree with Vympel.Russia does not need thousands of missiles and hundreds of submarines the ex Soviet Union used to maintain. Cold war is long time over and Russia only needs a detterant force,that the 2000 warheads are more than able to perform.
djnikAren’t these the two they were supposed to get last year?
One is an upgrade of an incomplete model, while the other was a new build that had been improved… ie 45 ton payload etc etc.
Yes,the Tu-160s were supposed to be delivered in the last quarter of last year but as you can see there are delays.
djnikThey had to since the US had paid them to under some agreement. And were right pissed when after Ukraine had accepted the money they were then going to sell them to Russia. But in the end Ukraine scrapped them.
No wonder they wanted to sell them to Russia even though they got money from USA.They got used to foul play. I mean they sold the AS-15 missiles that the Tu-160s were carrying to China,and who knows maybe Iran as well.
djnikIt’s my understanding that when Greece began purchasing and then upgrading it’s F-16 fighter fleet under the Athena I, II, and III programs, ground radar surveillance equipment had to be changed/upgraded to fully function with the new digital information processing systems on the airplanes. (I’m using Greece as an exmple b/c they are still upgrading and acquiring Air Force equipment and they’re easy to relate to.) Again, we could have 3 squadrons of F-22 raptors, but in this age of warfare, not having the proper informational link between: radar stations – air command – AD SAM units – individual AD SAM systems – Airplanes – Army AD units/systems would be a waste. I guess what i’m trying to say is, we’d have to bring all support systems up to par. When did we purchase the TPS-63 and TPS-70? Mid eighties? How many systems do we have? Thanks
First of all a nice text postet by our collegue here on the forum-“Google”:
Date Posted: 15-Jun-2004
JANE’S MISSILES AND ROCKETS – JULY 01, 2004
Serbia and Montenegro has repaired its air-defence radars
Serbia and Montenegro has reconstructed most of its defensive radar network, repairing the damage done by NATO air strikes in 1999. Students from the Belgrade Faculty of Electrical Engineering who visited the Novi Banovci radar station in May 2004 were told that more than 90% of the radar equipment was in good working order.
Colonel Raica Boskovic, commander of the 126th Brigade for Air Reconnaissance, Warning and Guidance (VOJIN) of the Serbia and Montenegro Army, told the students that in 2000 only about 30% of the radars had been operational. Most of the radars that had been hit by NATO air strikes have now been overhauled and repaired by the Belgrade Military-Technical Institute. This reconstruction had to be done with local resources, since financial problems and international arms embargos made it very difficult to obtain equipment and spare parts.
Before the start of hostilities in 1999, the Serbia and Montenegro Army VOJIN had a total of 12 radars. These were attacked by 15 cruise missiles, 13 air-to-ground missiles, 29 anti-radiation missiles and 98 bombs, Col Boskovic told the students.
To counter these air strikes, the network carried out a total of 169 redeployments around a network of 165 locations, which included 49 newly built reserve positions. This amounted to more than two redeployments a day over the 78 days of combat. The 126th VOJIN Brigade’s air defences fired six Strela 2M (SA-7 ‘Grail’) man-portable SAMs (surface-to-air missiles) in self-defence, and downed one Tomahawk cruise missile.
The network remained operational throughout the campaign, said Col Boskovic, and his own unit tracked and took part in the successful engagement of the F-117 Black Hawk stealth fighter which was shot down on 27 March 1999.
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For the detection of strike packages at long range, the RV i PVO relies on AN/TPS-70 radars bought from the USA in 1982.The radar station in Novi Banovci has Marconi Elliot S-600 radar complex and rest of the network is based on S-600, AN-TPS-63 and AN/TPS-70. Of them all the only Russian long rage search radar is P-14. Rest of the Russian equipment like P-12 , P-15 , P-18 ,P-40,PRV-11, PRV-16 , are going out of the service (although they are still listen on MODs website) . Radio relay network (microwave communications) are based on Swedish systems and so are many Ground to Air radio systems. Main VOJIN OC is staffed not with equipment form Russian sources but everything is of Western origin (again Swedish equipment). There where attempts to equip some Russian radars with DMTI (coherent-on-receive system) but entire system was not very usable so VOJIN was unable to make those radars part of ASS-84 system.
djnikits great to hear the russians are rebuilding [or making] some more blackjacks……tell me is it still the biggest most powerful combat aircraft ever flown. i have head that the ukraine scrapped what was left of there tu-160s is this true…..
Sadly it is true 😡
djnikI frankly,do not see a new fighter aircraft in Serbian Air force by 2015. We will just have to hold on with what we have for the next 9 years.
djnikThe second Tu-160 will require crew retraining, but the first, upgraded model won’t? Does this mean the second aircraft will be more advanced than the first?
That doesnt make sence indeed. As sou said,the second,newly made Tu-160 might have different systems layout that could not be installed in the upgraded one due to existing configuration.
Lets hope some nice photos come up some time soon.
djnikAs nice as that would be, I don’t think it would be productive or efficient to get any US fighter aircraft. You’d have to train all of your logistical personell on a completely different aircraft, operating procedure, ammunition, missiles, rockets, ground control/radars, and even the wrenches would need to be changed. Besides, the f-16 is older than the MiG’s we operated. (Are the B’s night vision capable?) (And which F-16 model was the first with night vision display?) (Was it the C, and if so which block?)
Exactly. The purchase would not just be the airplanes, but all the support equipment and the weapons,which brings the costs of the whole deal up significantly. I dont get your point though why the ground control radards would need to be changed?We already use western TPS-63 and TPS-70 radars.
In any case F-16As are too old and the airframes have a lot of hours on them.Ideally some second hand F-16Cs that went trough MLU (Mid Life Upgrade) would be good.
Anyways,the future airplanes of our airforce will most probably be of Russian origin but fully compatible with NATO standards.
When a country makes a purchase like this, it’s looking 20-30 years in the future. 15-20 years as the primary fighter aircraft and another 10-15 as a gap-fill measure for the next generation. We’d be purchasing a gap-filler. In that case, upgrading current and purchasing new ground radars and SAMs would be the better route to go. I just feel that purchasing anything than the best we can buy, is not worth it. Why buy planes that would just be shot down anyway?
I know we’re not from the best neigborhood in the world, but everybody’s got a couple hundred sa-7/16/18 just sitting around. EVERYBODY! Albania, the Federation, Srpska Republika, KLA, Macedonia, Croatia…and then the countries in our weight class…bulgaria, greece, romania, hungary; they’re a lot more serious. Our airforce of 200 planes couldn’t even be utilized properly during the civil war b/c every side had manpads. Lets not even talk about the 30 or so operable planes we’ve got now.
A better ECM and chaff/flare equipment is essential in avoiding radar and heat guided SAMs and thats exactly what our Air Force lacked.
I’m not criticising the air force b/c i understand why they couldn’t jeapordize their aircraft, i just wish the whole situation had been different and that they could have shown themselves in the proper light.
Wrong tactics was one of the reasons to blame and also poorly trained and self assured officers.
djnik33 million dollars just to fly the planes per year…is “doable” in your opinion??? :rolleyes: Interesting…And 150 hours per year?? Hmm…Serbia’s AF trying to take on the US these days for who has the highest flying hours?? MiG-29 pilots were lucky if they got 20 hours a year in the past 20 years…you’r telling us 150 a year now?? Interesting…lol…another Venik pipedream. BTW did those Kilo subs get delivered yet or what??
Dont provocate people without a reason.Or express your views in a private message. 127TH Knights expressed his view and he is free to do so.He didnt insult anyone or provocate like you just did. And you again want to establish the fact that your opinion is the only one that counts and no one else is allowed to speak freely without being told off by you. 😡
djnikHehe i know that:) I have been 5 times so far.But i mean some interesting Navy things to see.
djnikIS that one of the former team aircraft??? It certainly looks golden yellow under the camo.
I think its one of the former team aircraft,as you said due to the golden yellow colour.
djnikThe new Il-76s are equipped with much more fuel efficient engines.And i mentioned only 2 of the type,with the rest being An-26s or 32s.
djnikFuel consumption depends on the engine(in this case 2) and on the weight of the airplane.Unless they change the basic RD-33s and install some better(ie. more fuel efficient) model,the cost per flight hour will not change much as the upgrade will not make the airplane any lighter.
For the F-16C Blok 50 the cost per flight hout is $3 900.
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