tphuang1. In Hyperwarp provided report, it mentioned the airborne C & C post has to provide coordination for near 100 other aircrafts being active in the same area, considering many of them are actually low flying helos in a poor visibility mountainous area, I doubt any other smaller Y-8 series EW platforms have the Radar tracking & C & C as well as communication ability at the same time to coordinate so many planes.
2. KJ2000 is the maturest platform compared to other “High new” Y-8 series and KJ2000 has already taken part in many PLAAF & PLAN joint exercises while many Y-8 new faces are still in trail fly.
3. Another report in Hyper’s link has mentioned that the AWACS is from Wuxi city, a well known home base for KJ2000. There’s no report of any Y-8 EW planes other than KJ200 are deployed in Wuxi as well. and KJ200 is just less mature and capacity than its bigger brother
so, basically your entire theory on why it cannot be KJ-200 is because you don’t think it has the ability to coordinate 100 other aircrafts. Now, I don’t have performance data on it, but I’d think something like E-2D would have that kind of capability. Either way, I’m not going to bother arguing on such a moot point.
tphuangwhere is the evidence. show me sortie rate and per hour costs? For third world countries Soviet/Russian equipment are the best because of simplicity and price. u tried to jump directly into first world and see the result now. there is alot of other stupid decisions that Chinese made.
from all Chinese reports coming out of the relief, blckhawk were the best helicopters we had.
I mean building your own Tu-204/IL-96 in 90s when Oil was cheap (economics of airline was not a big factor) but it would have given big lift to Chinese manufacturing ability and by now u wouldnt even need license for A-320 or ARJ-21 sitting on the ground. and U cannot make 60 tons IL-76MF with 60000 to 80,000 flight hours with ICAO 4 noise and 15% fuel efficiency. here is new models
why would we want planes that can’t compete with Western airliners? If your Tu-204/il-96 was so amazing, all the major airlines would be buying them instead of A-320 and B-737. Are you so ignorant that you don’t understand countries would rather develop their own plane than buying ToT of someone else?
how many do u have in operations?. If u had got Mi-17/Mi-26/Ka-32 license in 90s. By now u would have more than 1000 of them. u lost big time. Just Russia exported more than 1000 in mean time.
Two things: cost of helicopter and pilots. PLA doesn’t have enough of either to get 1000. You clearly don’t understand the kind of problems PLA faces.
what is its altitude vs Mi-171V5? China should have decided a decade ago about Mi-17 license. considering hundreds have been bought anyway and now assembling in 2008. Poor decision making.
Z-8F with the new PW engines has no problem with flying in Tibetan altitude. The problem with it is the cost, not the performance.
tphuangBasically it says the newly deployed PLAAF KJ2000 AWACS (Suggested by the photo and the location of the AWACS from) has taken part in the Sichuan earthquake relief and rescue operation, The KJ2000 AWACS provides much needed air traffic C $ C and communication relay for near hundred other relief aircrafts above the disaster area
actually, it could also be one of the high new series aircrafts. The article didn’t say either way and the author just assumed KJ-2000.
As for the 5th gen plane news, it’s been known for a while now that CAC is the main developer of the plane.
tphuangthis very funny story. Spending 7 years on negotiation just to bring the price down and than start believing on your own industry that they can deliver the product on time, cost and similar capability. China missied big in 90s when Russia was more than willing to offer licenses and joint projects like Mi-17/IL-76/Tu-204/IL-96 etc but Chinese spent hundreds of billions on Western airline s and eurocopter projects which had no relation with military, strategic airlift and local expertize development. So end result caught with pants down in earth quake. i dont think Chinese helicopters are equiped with navigation and infrared systems that can see through clouds. and offcourse not putting money to fund oil pipeline that alone save costs 20% in transporting oil through supertankers.
what the heck are you talking about? Do you know about the performance of the helicopter in the earthquake? Do you know that blackhawks were still the best helicopter through the crisis despite the recent Mi-17 purchases?
Why would we want tu-204 or il-96? We already got the license for Mi-17 and we got ripped off on IL-76.
From the europeans, we got Z-15 project, got help on Z-10 project, got Z-8, Z-9, EC-120, CA-109 ToT and our Z-11 is developed based on Squirrel. Everything we have right now is thanks to the Europeans.
tphuangPinko you are right and any way congratulations however i found the reason why it was politically motivated
here is the report in Russian
Итогом первого дня переговоров стала совместная декларация, содержавшая помимо заверений в дружбе и намерениях решать все миром осуждение развертывания ПРО в Европе. О негативном отношении к этому вопросу Медведев сказал за несколько дней до визита в интервью китайским СМИ, назвав ПРО источником дополнительной напряженности. В декларации текст смягчили, упомянув лишь про некоторые регионы, размещение в которых систем стратегической ПРО не способствует поддержанию стабильности и баланса. В обмен России пришлось отказаться от претензий по поводу копирования и запуска в производство образцов военной техники, которую китайцы производят по российской лицензии. Гендиректор компании «Сухой» Михаил Погосян убеждал журналистов, что новый китайский истребитель J11B вовсе не является аналогом российского Су-27, а просто на него похож. Не шла речь и о повышении пошлин на китайский импорт в Россию, хотя все последние годы он рос втрое быстрее, чем российский экспорт в Китай, и положительное сальдо в $5 млрд в 2003 году сменилось к 2007-му отрицательным в $8,5 млрд. Медведев назвал лишь общие цифры: $40 млрд товарооборота сейчас и $60 млрд к 2010 году или даже раньше.
The outcome of the first day of negotiations has become a joint declaration containing assurances in addition to friendship and intentions to solve all the world condemnation of the deployment of missile defense in Europe. On the negative attitude towards this issue Medvedev said a few days before the visit in an interview with Chinese media, calling ABM an additional source of tension. The declaration text reduced, mentioning only some of the regions in which the deployment of strategic missile defense systems is not conducive to maintaining stability and balance. In exchange, Russia had to abandon claims about backing up and running in production samples of military hardware that the Chinese are producing for the Russian license. CEO of “Sukhoi” Mikhail Pogosyan convince journalists that the new Chinese fighter J11B is not analogous to the Russian Su-27, but just like him. Do not been dealt with and on raising duties on Chinese imports in Russia, although all recent years, it grew three times faster than Russian exports to China, and a surplus of $ 5 billion in 2003 followed by 2007 – moo negative in the $ 8.5 billion Bëär named only general figures: $ 40 billion in turnover now and $ 60 billion by 2010 or even earlier
If you see the reason was a compromise in exchange for political and economic alliance Sukhoi abandoned the claims
I don’t think it’s that simple, I’m sure they have worked out some form of understand that will allow China to make their own modifications to J-11B as needed to be and there probably is some kind of royalty system set up when J-11 series goes over 200 units. In the end, I don’t think either side want something like this to hurt bilateral relationship.
tphuangCan you prove it?
read my blog and the WS-10 thread SDF, it’s all there.
There was a huge ramp up in production level in October of last year.
3. L-15: even if Hongdu just inherits the current customer base built by the K-8, it would be a major success. But as a supersonic trainer/attack craft, it could expand the market of its predecessor
oh man, L-15 project is going absolutely no where. The slowness of Hongdu in developing this thing has really pissed off the PLA brass. If anything, it looks like JF-17 is going to take a lot of orders that would’ve gone to L-15. HAIG really is an embarrassment to AVIC.
tphuangWS-10A is operational with J-10. And WS-10A is in mass production, this is something we know from recent avic1 articles.
tphuangAnd you know very little about the Su-35BM.
actually, I know quite a bit. I read all the kanwa articles on it, all the Russian promotion on it. How much of J-11B info do you think is available for people like you to understand.
Russia is not claiming fiber optics communications we do not know what type of systems it has in detail we do know it has more advanced engine and missiles see
so, you don’t know about the improved Taihang that will be ready in a couple of years and have higher thrust and T/W ratio than 117S and you claim that su-35 has more advanced engine?
Other than PL-12, have you seen the latest generation SRAAM and LRAAM that China is developing? But we have seen all the stuff about the new generation Russian AAMs that have been hyped for years but have not come out.
In terms of engineering, the engines are substantially modified AL-31F production engines employing fifth-generation technologies. They use a new fan, new high and low pressure turbines, and a new digital control system. A provision is made for using a vectored thrust nozzle. The modernization has increased the engine special mode thrust by 16%, up to 14,500 kgf. In the maximum burner-free mode it reaches 8,800 kgf. Compared to today’s AL-31F engines, their capabilities will grow substantially, by 2 to 2.7 times. For instance, the between-repair period will grow from 500 to 1,000 hours (the operating period before the first overhaul is 1,500 hours). The designed period will vary between 1,500 and 4,000 hours
http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/Su-35/
so basically, it’s still less reliable than F110 series. It has worse T/W ratio (I mean US standard T/W, not the Russian Standard) than 132. Unobjectively looking at the Russian engines, I would say FM4 is actually better than 117S.
The J-11B has the same AL-31 in fact china just bought Al-31 for their aircraft, the J-11B even with the WS-10 can not match that, it can not match even the standard AL-31.
WS-10A has better thrust, better T/W ratio and once it matures will have better reliablility and it’s worse than AL-31? Do you know that they ramped up the production of WS-10A in October of last year. And it’s expected to reach 100 this year and equip all of the J-11Bs and large number of J-10s?
Also it is a cliche that Russia has not modernized its tooling, they have modernized it simply becasue they are recovering economically and the Su-35BM is a truely modern fighter
it’s still a 4th generation fighter no matter how much boasting Russians do.
Armament
In addition to the armaments onboard the modern Su-30MK, it is planned to additionally arm the Su-35 with new types of air-to-air and air-to-surface guided missiles, including long-range types. The maximum ordnance load of the Su-35 is 8,000 kg. This is placed in 12 weapon stations.
The missiles we got for su-30 are inferior in every way to domestic options. That’s why they like jh-7a more than su-30 now. And who is going to fight with the maximum load? You loose range and maneuverability doing so.
Irbis-E radar control system detects and tracks up to 30 air targets, retaining continuity of space observation and engaging up to eight targets. The system detects, chooses and tracks up to four ground targets in several map-making modes with various resolution at a range of up to 400 km, without stopping to monitor the airspace.
don’t boast to me, it does not good. Again, plaaf have already tested this out. It has nothing on the AESA radar being prepared for J-11B in the near future.
here it is suggested new versions of the AA-12 with ramjet, (meteorskii) or even the R-37 and KS-172
it’s a good thing they are getting a newer version of AA-12, because it wasn’t any good compared to PL-12. As I mentioned, the new generation of SRAAM has finished development. It will certainly be a newer generation than R-73. As for ramjet based LRAAM, that will also be coming out.
here are the avionics
New engines with all-aspect TVC nozzle and thrust of 14,500 kg are installed on the air-craft. The inner fuel capacity is increased and the aircraft can carry two external fuel tanks with 2,000 liters capacity. The aircraft is equipped with the new Integrated digital aircraft con-trol system (ICS) carried out the functions of Fly-by-wire and Automatic Flight Control systems, Signal limiting system and Air Data System, and Landing Gear Wheel Braking Control System. The aircraft boasts of new avionics with the use of multiplex communication links, and phased array radar. Wide-angle colour head-up display and two large-format colour MFDs form the aircraft indication system. Due to the cockpit lightening equipment the pilot can use night vision goggle.
you are boasting because it has a couple of MFDs, a wide-angled HUD and a FBW? It’s certainly a modern 4th generation cockpit, but how many fighters don’t have that right now? I even see all of the above on JF-17.
tphuangCrobato , you are just speculating and justifying the PLAAF`s lack of a real modern Su-27 variant.
you clearly have no clue how modern J-11B is
First the article talks about the Russian car industry, not about Sukhoi buying western tooling contrary to the article i proved Shenyang did buy tooling in the 1990s from Europe and Japan for building aircraft
this is important because currently Russia is building modern jets and is using tooling built by russian manufactures and very likely some also gotten from other sources, however in aviation the Russians do build their own tooling for aircraft manufacturing.
Actually, the tooling in the Chinese aircraft factories are much better than the Russian ones. Most of them are still using the Soviet era ones. But for some reason, the Russians still manage to pump them out in good quality. Says a lot of good things about the skill of the Russian work force.
Second Russia did not sell some technologies to China because russia knew the chinese could break the contract as they did with the Su-27 by just building 95 sets and later building illegal copies of the Su-27 AKA the J-11B and India got a better variant simply because India has a history of respecting the copyright of Russian aircraft .
Some people here claim here like you China was smarter than India just to cover the real fact India got the best airplane and the best tech simply because India has built several hundred of MiG-21s and MiG-27 without building any illegal copy or selling any of them to third parties, contrary to china that has a real history of trying to outsmart the Russians, therefore China got the less advanced aircraft simply because they have tried and have cheated russia in the past.
you are not saying much.
in fact if we are honest for Russia the J-11B is not a real threat beyond the fact China should not get profits from a Russian product, the reality the J-11B is for the russians as when they were in the late 1970s when they authorised the MiG-21 license to India and were poised to start the first flight of the Su-27/T-10S or when they authorized the MiG-27 license to India and started building Su-27s or when they sold MiG-25s to the arabs and started building MiG-31; the J-11B is 1980s tech, not even the 1990s Su-37, the Su-30MKI is far more modern in terms of aerodynamics and engine
That is the reason the Su-35BM is far more advanced, simply because Russia has allowed China to copy what Russia considered less risky and still allows them to get money. if China has the chance they will copy the Su-35BM and the 117S engine for sure
Use of the phrase “far more advanced” at this day and age should only be applied on 5th generation fighters.
by what sense is it that much more advanced. Have you seen what J-11B will be in 2 or 3 years when su-35 will really be ready for mass exports? Does su-35 use fiberoptics cable for communication? what kind of databus standard does it use? What kind of newer generation AAMs will actually be ready by then for the Russians and for Chinese?
Face it, you know very little about J-11B.
tphuangThat is not accurate because China stopped recieving the Russian kits under the excuse of the fighters were not updated, China signed an agreement for 200 kits but withdrew from the agreement when they just recieved 105 kits, if China would had kept the agreement they would be still recieving kits from Russia and Sukhoi would still be making money out of china
in fact see ARM TASS Ru also reports the same
Как сообщили КДР российские военные источники, Россия официально уведомила Китай, что производство истребителя J11B является нарушением первоначального соглашения между странами,
Russia officially informed China that the production of the fighter J-11B is a violation of the original agreement between the countries (Russia and China)
http://www.arms-tass.su/?page=article&aid=53875&cid=121
Of course they are going to complain like little babies, because China is not buying their stuff anymore.
There are parts to the contract, like the purchase of ToT, the parts to the aircrafts and the royalty for 200 units of flankers. The only one they canceled is the parts to the aircrafts. It’s nonsensical for China to keep on wasting money on junks like su-27sk. Or do you suggest that China should keep on paying for the parts that it’s just going to trash anyways?
And in this case, the royalty for 200 units of flankers are already paid for. We don’t know what kind of arrangement they put in after the 200, but we are not at that point yet.
China paid for 105 examples at the most later they stopped unilaterally the deal, what the Russian are compaligning is the fact the J-11 still uses the Su-27 airframe and up to a degree some other russian technologies, the aircraft is a copy of the Su-27.
those are technology they already paid for. That’s where the 200 units of royalty + ToT are for. Bottom line, Russian pride is hurt here.
The russian experts say up to a degree the Russians expected this and up to a degree China did pay for some technologies used in the Su-27, however the deal does not allow China to export the Su-27.
they are not exporting any J-11Bs! They are not even allowed to export the Russians built su-27s without Russian approval.
Also they say the Chinese have yet to master the engine technology to power the Su-27 and are at least 10 years behind the Su-35BM so in terms of exports they do not really represent a big threat as many have supposed.
that’s rubbish, since we know WS-10A is already in mass production. There are avic1 articles on this. So, if they are behind su-35 in Russians opinion, then don’t be worried.
China is breaking the deal simply becasue Sukhoi wanted the chinese to continue as it was agreed, to use basic Chinese components with core elements bought from Russia.
they simply decided to go with 100% indigenization.
China will simply not build any more flankers if it has to accept a fighter that does not fit their requirements. Either way, they are not going to pay for more Russian components. Do you really think China will risk flying Su-27SMK level fighters against F-15K, MKI and super hornets? Russians knew this, so they tried to offer upgrade programs, which still simply were not good enough. Then, they tried to cut off the supply of certain parts for J-11B, which then got replaced by Chinese parts. Nothing worked, that’s why they sued.
They say also Russia could forgive China if they continue buying russian weapons and probably the Mi-17 deal as one of such deals
There are only so many more weapon systems worth buying. Why should China buy more weapon systems that are below their requirements? It’s totally nonsensical. Mi-171 deal is different, it’s signed like the Z-9 agreement. They can do 100% localization + export as many as they need in the future.
tphuangThe article said the engines are still russian made, I thought the J-11B would use the WS-10A?
that’s just PKF’s opinion, they bought 180 engines to replace the ones on the existing fleet of 270 flankers. We know that J-11B right now uses WS-10A and that WS-10A is already in mass production.
If the Russians were really upset by this they’d simply with-hold AL-31F deliveries- that would screw both the J-11B and the J-10, leaving them compromised with the WS-10.
What’s the big deal? It ain’t no Su-35BM, SM level at best.
some of upgrades of J-11B over su-27sk
1. It has lower weight than sk + more powerful engine -> better T/W ratio
2. It has lower RCS and is designed for longer service time
3. It uses fiber optics communications between the mission computers and faster data communication standard than link 16
4. It has all all-glass cockpit with holographic HUD.
5. More advanced EW suite with MAWs providing 360 degree coverage + IRST that’s improved on OLS-31E
6. Much more powerful radar which will be replaced by AESA radar in the near future.
tphuangwhats the point of ARJ-21 existence? It does no bring anything revolutionary interms of fuel economy or low upfront price.
when ur using state funds u want to make aircraft completely independent of outside parts. It will even lose money because of outside parts and cost of transporting/managing this supply chain. speed of development and delivery schedule is another issue.
Read up on what the financial experts have to say, don’t be lazy.
it’s designed for China’s operating environment right from the start. That’s why you already see 180 orders for it, more than RRJ and MRJ.
Don’t bother replying unless you read a couple.
Man sometimes is like talking to a wall, please understand, the Su-27 aka J-11 is not a chinese design, it employs a russian model that costed money to the Russians and that Russia has all the right to say how many Su-27 can be produced in china if China breaks the contract its simply treasoning Russia as simple as that.
China has no right over the J-11 beyond what is stipulated in the contract.
It is a stain because other manufacturers are looking what is happening in China and are unwilling to lose Money to Chinese frauds, Bombardier chose mexico for that reason they are building now jet aircraft in Mexico and originally they wanted to do it in China but these swindles made them change their mind
yeah, but China paid royalty for 200, it hasn’t got there yet, got it? They are still producing the plane under the contract, got it? Are you just trying to not accept this to continue talking?
tphuangIrrelevant it is not, if you now a little of investment in Mexico in the area of aerospace, you will now that several firms have gone there, and the advantages are transport and intelectual property, this will repeat it self in Brazil and India, if China continues creating a bad reputation with deals as the J-11B is not like you think or Golden Dragon thinks many aerospace manufatures will go to India, Brazil, Poland, Mexico and others just to avoid being swindle in China.
Competition means you will have to compromise more and more, and China is also compromising even with current deals.
In fact the ARJ-21 has so many components built overseas just to being accepted in the West and not all the technology is transfered just simply sold.
The J-11B is not something to be proud of in fact is a stain in the reputation China has created for its own industrial practices
all modern airliners use suppliers from around the world. Which airliner doesn’t? Why does ARJ-21 need to be different?
How is J-11B a stain if it’s simply SAC’s move to 100% localization?
tphuangFor you is irrelavant because you want to ignore a big consecuence the report says Mexico, he says, is most competitive in products with a high weight-to-value ratio, such as motor vehicles, auto parts, large-screen TVs, and major household appliances. It is also strong where quality or intellectual property protection are important,
When intellectual protection is important, so why do you think Bombardier went to Mexico?
in reality China has a stronger aerospace industry, cheaper salaries but more risks in terms of intelectual protection.
this is where you do not want to see China will lose, China already is losing because of that, who will be the winners? other nations simply China is losing investment and this means Jobs.
The Russians already have reported to China their disatisfaction with the J-11B, those are not opinions but facts reported by the Russian Media, simply see this the Sukhoi-Shenyang was an interguvernamental deal as such is solve by the interguvernmanental agencies if not probably Sukhoi might use international agencies.
http://www.memagazine.org/jan08/features/mexicore/mexicore.html
For the Z-10 case, the engines are only used for the prototypes. The production ones are all using domestic engines, so it’s not going to be an issue.
As for J-11B, the Russians are just expressing frustration because they are not getting orders. The Russians also think China copied WS-10A, the sensors on 054A, KJ-2000, Yuan and a bunch of other systems. Does that make it so? No.
Let’s face the two facts:
1. they are not exporting any J-11B, so Russian complaint here is nonsense
2. And as far as we can see, the original contract allowed China to indigenize the components in flanker to eventually reach 100% localization. They have still yet to reach the 200 license, so they haven’t broken any part of the contract that we can see. It’s not China’s fault that all the Russians can offer are the piece of junk N-001VE + R-77 upgrade.
tphuangdude, the Brazilian awacs is just Erieye, it’s not brazilian design.
Sign In
