Clearly a ambitious program no doubt! (and expensive) Yet, will it be stealthy enough to avoid enemy SSK’s (AIP) and SSN’s???:confused:

if you think it will be as quiet as Ohio class, then yes.

The USN is not superior to the Russian Navy.
If the USN was suddenly the Russian navy then Russia would either have to slash the Navies budget… to obvious effect, or Russia would be in more economic pain than during the 90s.
The current USN would be an enormous step backwards for Russia, so how could it be considered better for Russia?
Russia does not invade countries on a global scale so the USNs performance in that is irrelevant.
The Russians would have enormous trouble just finding a base for all of the USNs assets let alone be able to fund its normal operation.
And it is not just Russia any other country on the planet would be crippled economically by bearing the burden of the USN and the military benefit would be minor for most countries and would evapourate within a year because of the effect on the country burdened with paying for its existence.

The fact that the Russians can’t fight three wars and still threaten other countries all at once is a good and normal thing… the fact is that only the US can do this and the US can only do this because it is currently in a position to do this and its government has the will to ignore its own principles and inflict pain and suffering on others to impose its will globally… hense the recurring backlash of “anti americanism”.

The USSR was interested in peace… something the US may never understand as it has never really tasted war on its soil. Except the war on drugs… :rolleyes:

If US carrier groups ever become a serious threat in the future launching a dozen satellites would probably take less than a week. Humint will give them at least that length of warning. As its financial situation improves they will be launched anyway, so the capability is coming… and there is curently no hurry.

The Russian navy is not only inferior to USN, but several other better trained and/or better equipped naval forces. Have you seen what the once vaunted submarine force has turned into?

dude, dont know how you can believe in such stuff when everything is against it. there is no evidence that the irbis has been tested by china at all. in fact, its but entering full scale tests now, and has only demonstrated certain facets of raw range in mkk tests and a theoretical possibility that it can track 30 targets, and engage 8 – this from running simulated targets through its present processing eqpt.
the chinese sources you are depending upon are bunkum.

and sukhoi wll sell the pak-fa to iran if it could doesnt mean the russian govt will agree to it. time will tell, but i have my money on china not getting the full specs irbis and wisely deciding to continue with its homegrown radars.

believe what you must. All the Chinese sources that I use have proven themselves in other areas before. I don’t believe export Irbis would be full spec either, but the one China gets will not be any less the one that Venezuela gets for example.

second, there is no evidence that the f-22 is just 0.1 or 0.01 sq mtr either. the actual rcs is classified and will remain so for another decade and a half in all probability.

and lastly, they did reach their ambitious goals with the n001…in russian service. including adding long range search modes which werent exported to china.

I’m talking about N-001 the original, not N-001V.

Also, from recent open source reports, the chinese were in full force @ maks 07 and were seen devoutly studying the su-35. They seemed to pay particular attention to sub systems such as the Irbis and the engines. Obviously, they are still jumping @ something and the Irbis seems to be it. Thing is the russkies seem to want china to buy the entire a/c and not just one of its subsystems. And even then, one doubts they are going to sell china something that could very well undermine their own security.

there is no question that 117S and Irbis are good subsystems, but if the engine and Irbis was as amazing as advertised, China would not hesitate purchasing su-35.

@sferrin, Su-35 can shoot AWACS down without radiating a single beam.

L-175M will pick up AWACS’ signal and that data is all it’s needed for R-172’s launch authorization. R-172 features it’s own multimode seekerhead, and one of those modes is PR mode. While R-172’s small antenna won’t pick up the radiation from 300 km away, it will eventually. Until then, it’s going on inertia, thus no datalink, completely passive.

Midcourse updates and command correction are not really needed. AWACS ain’t going anywhere.

Upon positive lock with the PR seekerhead, AWACS is…basically dead. If those F-22’s are in front of it, let’s say 150 km, they are still 100 km short from engaging the Su-35 with AMRAAM. If they visually detected the incoming Novator (it’s a pretty bulky missile!) AWACS may try shutting down the radar system.

But again, it won’t do much. Upon signal loss, R-172 will just switch to AR guidance, and point to the last known location. The xxx sqm AWACS won’t be a hard target to lock from 100 km with AR.

In any case, letting Su-35 come at 300 km from the AWACS is a suicide.

You all seem to forget the AIM-120C-7 range. F-22 will be long detected by Irbis, before he gets L.A. with the AMRAAM. That is going to change with the -120D, but we’re not there yet (nor we are with the Su-35, but it will be a gap, VVS will get first types before USAF gets -120D).

Regarding plasma stealth, it’s not the cloud all over the plane, for god sakes. It’s layering the radome, from inside. It’s only purpose is to cover the radar antenna, and since the radome is radiotransparent, there’s no need to put the plasma layer outside to have direct contact with air. 🙂

are you serious? You still believe Irbis can detect 0.01 sqm targets from 90 km out? I guess that’s why China is jumping at this amazing F-22 conqueror.

Seems like I have to explain it to you in a clearer manner, you slowmo. In this thread, I only claimed that the system was feasible. I did not claim it was actually under research, or that it was already operational. I have stated clearly many times that I did not know, with regards to the latter two. And so all I needed to do to prove it was feasible was to show that the major components needed for such a system already exists.

In the 054A thread, you tried to prove that a system existed on the 054A by stating that such a system was feasible with China’s capabilites. In actuality, you didn’t even prove that much. But the worst flaw in your logic is equating the feasibility of something to it actually being deployed. That is something you are trying to accuse me of, and it is something I never did in this thread. All you critters are the same, reduced to accusing others of making claims they never did and attacking them based on that. :rolleyes:

I’m wondering how do people like yourself don’t get any kind of suspension for using names like slowmo and critters for others? But then again, the foul language used in this thread is getting embarrassing, the moderators really should shut this one down.

It’s kind of interesting that you still say I didn’t prove that much, when everyone seemed to join my side in the debate and you ended up quiting that thread. So, it was only you not believing in the evidence. Whereas in this case, it’s worthless debate between you and Crobato. Nobody cares except you two, really.

Hey, if you only think something is feasible, why do you still argue like this
“Its still up to you to prove it, rather than suggest via innuendo that it can.”
I already said that all the parts needed for such a system are available. What more do you need?

If you are not trying to argue for the existence of a program getting to this system, don’t use that kind of argument. Just say it’s a possibility and move on. Who spends pages arguing about possibilities? Maybe you just have too much free time. Anyone would believe that you are insisting that because parts are there, the system is also there.

I already said that all the parts needed for such a system are available. What more do you need?

weren’t you the guy that kept on using that against 054A? That if they don’t explicitly state it, that it doesn’t exist? Funny how you are going the other way now.

Decrease of 300 to 500 KM in combat radiues for 1200 KG extra weight? this thing is laughable. Su-30MKI is heaver than baseline Su-27SK by alteast 4000 KG not mentioning higher frontal X-section of twin seater vs Single seater but range reduction is only 530KM (Not combat radius). 1200KG extra weight does not mean big thing for an aircraft which has superior aerodynamics than other 4.5 generation aircraft. Just compare Su-27SK,SKM and MK2. There is huge difference in Maximum take off weight. Even if u load SK with 4 tons of external weight and MK2 with 8 tons the difference should be only 4 tons but difference is 8 tons in maximum take off weight.
http://www.knaapo.ru/eng/products/military/index.wbp
http://www.knaapo.ru/eng/products/military/Su30MK2.wbp

1200 kg -> payload, not additional plane weight. If you check some of the figures for some of the well known fighters like F-16

# 740 nm (1,370 km) w/
2 2,000-lb bombs + 2 AIM-9 + 1,040 US gal external tanks
# 340 nm (630 km) w/
4 2,000-lb bombs + 2 AIM-9 + 340 US gal external tanks

That’s basically a 740 km decrease from having 2000 kg more payload and 700 less gal of gas.

And you just have no response to the part about your own source saying 2 R-27 + R-73 for a combat radius of 1500 km?

withou using composites? tell this to Civillian airlines like Airbus/Boeing/Tuplev/Sukhoi. they are going to 50% figure.
For light aerodynacmically defcient fighters one to two tonnes in extra weight has huge impact.

composites is just one way to decrease the weight, this is so stupid I have to argue with you on this. If you can reduce weight without using composites, you will. Having composite does not necessarily make a fighter lighter. It’s one of the methods to decrease weight.