tphuangYou are quoting Kanwa when it is convinient to you, you like KANWA only if it fits your speculation and you call it. it is true when it fits well your speculation,
See If KANWA SAYS AL-31 fits the J-11B you are saying is not good, like SKYISTHELIMIT the same he aduces KANWA considers a mystery the J-11B therefore he concludes they are saying J-11B is fitted with WS-10 uhmm…. nice double thought
If you see TASS has this article 14.05.2007 13:18
Информация по новому китайскому истребителю завоевания превосходства в воздухе J-11B
ЛЕНТА “АВИАЦИЯ, КОСМОС, ВООРУЖЕНИЯ” what basicly means information about the newest Chinese built air superiority fighter J-11BI can trust this article because this is a russian side but usually you just take one side and you quote from it what fits you well, if this Russian article affirms the J-11B is a non russian kit and will enter production i will admitt it as almost official since Sukhoi also has to addmit it in a press release too, you quote what you like about the KANWA article what you do not like about it you do not want to quote it for example if they say it is fitted with an AL-31 because obviuosly it can mean it is an upgrade like the MiG-23MLD, F-14B or Dennel Cheetah and specially because in that way China would not build any unlicense Su-27 but you do not like to quote that part.
you now even change you main statement saying the J-11B is an interim type until the later J-11B with WS-10, cool so now you are betting two ways
Китай намерен использовать многоцелевые БРЛС управления огнем типа 1474 и ТРДД WS10A собственного производства вместо российских систем. Однако, как полагают эксперты, организация такого производства потребует еще много времени
this means China is intended to use multipurpose fire control radar system, the type 1474 and the TURBOFAN ENGINE WS10A of chinese domestic production instead of the Russian systems. However, as experts assume, the organization of this production will require still much time
http://www.arms-tass.su/?page=article&cid=+25&aid=24029&part=11
let’s see, you still do not answer the one question that I’ve asked.
as for this
“you now even change you main statement saying the J-11B is an interim type until the later J-11B with WS-10, cool so now you are betting two ways”
I wrote in post #188
lol, you still don’t get it do you? J-11B by definition means all indigenous. If it’s not all indigenous, it can only be considered an interim class.
so, basically, I just repeated my point to you. And you can’t even recognize that.
as for kanwa, i will just repeat
As for this I only quote kanwa when it suits me, I only quote kanwa when it’s not their own opinion.
And your arguments, you are even confusing me now with what you believe, why don’t you clarify. My views are pretty clear.
tphuangSo kanwa is only good when it is convinient for you, Sukhoi never has claimed the J-10B is an aircraft build additionally of the 105 aircraft China built, in that comment they said China is an independent aircraft manufacturer, the J-11B uses Al-31s however you want to quote only the parts that suits you well for an specualtion, Sukhois says Shenyang is an independent manufacturer and Sukhoi only is a consultant that is good to quote but the J-11B uses AL-31 is not uhmm…:rolleyes: use the logic, if the J-10 still uses Al-31s and China still buys AL-31s why then you want to claim a speculation, up to what i read as some people have said the J-11B is an upgrade of the last batches of Sukhois, and up to what i have understand the first J-11Bs only have chinese radar and avionics but still have the old AL-31s, china has not signed a second agreement with Russia for the construction of the remaining 90 J-11s, Kanwa also quoted that.
China still buys AL-31F for the PLAAF`s Flanker fleet including the J-11s
I am not excluding the J-11B might be re-engine in the future, what i am disagreement is the idea China is building more than 105 J-11s because in that page they said the improving of the production line will be before the last J-11As are built before the last 105 J-11 is built and by improving they meant the J-11B.
裝根據生產計劃﹐200根據生產計劃﹐2007年之前將完成105架J11﹑J11A的組裝工作。因此﹐2 007年對於中國空軍而言是非常重要的一年﹐漢和防務評論總編輯平可夫首次透露中國將繼續生產根據生產計劃 ﹐2007年之前將完成105架J11﹑J11A的組裝工作。因此﹐2007年對於中國空軍而言是非常重要 的一年﹐漢和防務評論總編輯平可夫首次透露中國將繼續生產J11B改良型戰鬥機。J11B改良型戰鬥機。
Russian sources never claim the Chinese build more than 105 kits
see they claimed the AL-31 is still powering the J-11B
在質量上﹐J11B的改良將是劃時代的﹐除了發動機依然是俄羅斯生產的AL31F之外﹐J11B的其他各個 分系統都大幅度實現了國產化﹐而且能夠發射中國產的主動雷達誘導空對空導彈以及其他精確制導武 器。
again, you refused to answer the most basic question that I’ve been asking you.
Face it, you have no good answer for it.
As for this I only quote kanwa when it suits me, I only quote kanwa when it’s not their own opinion.
As for this part about J-11B using AL-31F, I’ve stated over and over again. If it’s using AL-31F, then it’s some interim class, not J-11B. As for what Kanwa stated, kanwa did not just knows some AL-31F got exported there, but it has no idea what it’s for. So, it assumes it’s used for J-11B. btw, even in the recent edition of kanwa, PKF has stopped proclaiming that.
tphuangWe still don’t know anything about HHQ-16 other than what can be assumed from the external systems most likely fitted for it. Thats mainly based around those Orekh-like of illuminators and the VLS set. From the actual missile we still don’t know wheter its completely indegenious or derivation from the Shtill series. So its premature to make any assumptions wheter its better/worse than some other missile.
What comes for the “sthealthyness” of the hull, Type 23 have right angles deleted from the superstructure (thus its rather weird appearance) and it’s was claimed that it was “invisible” to all current SSM radar seekers then in service (1990’s).
com’on now, Golly.
this is Type 23
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HMS_Richmond_F239_%28Type_23_class_frigate%29.jpg
This is 054
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/type054jiangkai_07.asp
tphuangSure? The OHP’s SYS-2 IADT track correlation system serves to integrate all the radars aboard the OHP. This greatly reduces track initiation time and increases the target update rate. The Sea Eagle’s scan rate of 5 RPM is woeful compared to the IADT system on the OHP which combines all inputs from the CAS (60RPM), SPS-55 (16RPM) and SPS-49 (12RPM). Even the Phalanx’s radar is theoretically able to be integrated into the system, and with the Field Change upgrade bringing it up to the TMS system as on Taiwan’s OHPs, even ESM, IFF and EO/IR data can be integrated. The IADT as a system served to cut reaction time by more than half, and the SPS-49 MPU specifically greatly enhanced small, low altitude target detection.
I was just comparing strictly the long range radar here. So, I have no idea what you are blabbering on about. I’m not sure where you got the 5 RPM from, since the recent Sea Eagle radar are significantly upgraded from the previous version. I don’t think they are even operating on the same frequency. If you want to include radar capable of tracking, then we can factor in SR-64, which should be rotating at 60 RPM. If you want to compare the resolution/frequency of FCR, then we can compare CAS to the FCRs on 054A(probably something similar to MR-90). But then again, I was never talking about that.
As the Eilat incident shows, having the best engagement capability is useless if the system cannot detect the target, or cannot detect it in time. The OHP’s IADT gives it very quick reaction capability which allows the OHP to make use of the range of the well-tested SM-1 Block VI. The bigger magazine of the OHP also gives it better combat endurance.
who the heck told you that 054A can’t detect targets on time? They got 4 FCRs operating on I-Band. They got SR-64 (operating on H-Band) as the tracking radar with extremely good reliability vs mach3 sea-skimming anti-ship missiles. Just looking at Type 730 alone, it has OT-3 E/O tracker and TR-47C FCR. Again, developed to be able to track/encounter multiple supersonic sea-skimming missiles. What kind of ability do you think SM-1 has against multiple supersonic sea-skimmers? or even 1?
The OHP also has hangar space for 2 helicopters, giving it far better versatility over the 054A. In terms of littoral ASuW capability, having 2 helicopters gives the OHP better capability than the 054A. ASW is also greatly imprived, with a heli available more often, or two helis to decrease submarine prosecution time.
I was never comparing ASW, was I?
As for ASuW, they have the domestic version of Bandstand/light bulb datalink. People often doubt their usefulness. However, why would PLAN put those humongous sensors in there if it doesn’t work?
You know the HH-16 has longer range than the SM-1 and has better reliability against low skimming missiles? How so? The SM-1 Block VI’s range is equivalent to that of the SA-N-12, and moreover, the SM-1 has been extensively tested, with it being in service in multiple navies.
according to my sources, it’s range is longer than that of HQ-2, around 50 km. What ability does SM-1 have against low skimming missiles? It wasn’t designed for that.
And the OHP can be upgraded to Mk-92 mod 12, fitted with WDS Mk 14 and VL ESSM banks to give it a NTU-like capability.
right, USN is going to do that work on retired OHP for PN that they are giving away. Brilliant.
tphuangThe Russians are quoting KANWA 😀 yes your loved Kanwa:D they are saying 40 J-10As are operational in the PLAAF, that adds up with the early deliveries of Al-31FNs even with the latest batch of 100 AL-31FN that Russia confirmed in 2006 and signed in 2005, 154 AL-31FNs have been bought by China and they are saying 40 J-10As;)
so you are not going to answer that question?
Again, any kanwa opinion cannot be treated as evidence, since we’ve actually seen far more than 40 J-10A (we know it’s wrong to state something like that). Again, the only thing you can take for sure is anything from an interview that kanwa conducts. In this case, sukhoi obviously indicated that they did not work on J-11B.
tphuangThe J-11B uses according to KANWA AL-31s and even there are reports well based that it is intended to use WS-10s and probably in the future they will use it, according to NOVOSTY the russian news outlet based upon a KANWA report the J-10 still uses AL-31s, in fact they claim 40 J-10As have been built
К настоящему времени произведено около 40 истребителей J-10A, все они находятся на вооружении китайских ВВСand China has stocked up 154 Al-31FNs, that is correct since China has bought around 154 AL-31FNs
По данным KANWA, китайские военные уже закупили 154 российских двигателя для истребителей, а общий план подразумевает производство не менее 300 истребителей J10А.they also say China has intentions to sell the J-10 to North Korea and the MiG-29 might have some tough competition from the J-10 in the international markets since it is cheaper despite it uses a Russian Al-31, they go as far as claim the MiG-29 might have to compete with the J-10 in some african and asian countries among then Suda, Angola, Nigeria and Iran.
J-10A и МиГ-29СМТ являются самолетами одного и того же поколения, кроме того, на китайских истребителях используются российские двигатели компании “Салют”, что делает их еще более похожими” – поясняет Чан в интервью РИА Новости.“Скорее всего, китайские истребители будут конкурировать с российскими в таких странах, как Судан, Ангола, Нигерия, Иран и Таиланд” – пояснил гонконгский эксперт.
lol, 40 J-10A have been built? that already invalidates your source.
Again, Kanwa believes that J-11B uses AL-31, but it’s not at SAC. On the other hand, Sukhoi explicitly told kanwa that it’s not involved in J-11B. That’s the difference.
You still haven’t answered why China would need to produce numerous J-11B prototypes and test them for a couple of years unless it’s been changed structurally and fitted with a different engine.
tphuangThe OHP with SM1 is superior in AAW compared to type-054a. The ASuW is better in both OHP and T-23, especially since they can also carry two helicopters instead of one. Secondly OHP will be available in numbers and more readily in 3-4 years compared to 054 which will take nearly a decade to build and complete.
That’s total trash. The main advantage of 054A over OHP and T-23 is in air defence and its new and stealthy hull.
Compared to OHP:
It can do multiple engagement much better considering that it has 4 FCRs in different directions without requiring illumination the entire way, it can track low and supersonic anti-ship missiles (like Brahmos and Klub) and engage them effectively (something that can’t be said about OHP). Remember, the one MK-92 can only engage one target at a time, whereas there are more FCRs on 054A than DDG-51. With the latest Sea Eagle radar, it can detect targets in much finer detail and better resolution considering that it is a electronically scanned 3D radar compared to AN/SPS-49. It has much better better close in engagement with 2 Type 730 CIWS + AK-176M clone vs 1 Phalanx + whatever gun OHP uses.
For HH-16 vs SM-1, you have a missile that is getting withdrawn from USN vs something just coming into service that will be continuously upgraded. HH-16 has longer range, should be better reliability against low skimming anti-ship missile, faster reaction time since it’s launched through VLS.
As for this 054A might take a decade. It gets built very fast. The only concern is when China will export it and in what form.
And if 054 comes with C-803 then its actually superior in range to harpoon. Seems like you can only blusterwithout claiming or knowing anything?
it’s Y-83, C-803 is a misnomer! And yes, it has better range + 054A actually has a OTH radar in Sea Soul.
ell Type-23 is often quoted as best ASW ship that there is in frigate category and thougth dating from mid-80’s it still present quantium leap with Sonar system and expecially with its gas-turbine /diesel-eletric porpulsion comapared to what Chinese have come up this far. OHP has also Gas turbine porpulsion and its ASW fit would still be superior to chinese one.
054/054A are diesel powered large patrol ships with good multipurpose armament and superficially they seem to fit perfectly to the tactical needs of PN, but few closer detail issues speaks more behalf of the two mentioned warhorses.
More advanced sonar can be fitted in the future version depending on the customer specification. Although, the biggest single flaw to 054A is the propulsion. With diesel engine, it’s never going to be as quiet as Type 23 or OHP. But in the case with PN, they should be using their diesel subs as the main ASW platform. On the other hand, they actually have nothing for air defence.
tphuangTrue PN needs new ships desperately. The newest T-21 is already 29 years old and the leanders are gone (except for training). Even F-22p fulfills the criteria you mentioned, but it still is a piddly light frigate. They would certainly look for some good ships as seen by their attempts at getting the T-23’s and standard class frigates. I just don’t see them going all chinese in surface ship. I guess they are hoping for a OHP handouts from USN.
well in this case, why don’t you explain how T-23 and OHP are better than 054A?
tphuangI will be utterly honest with you, i have read that China builds between 60% or 70% of the Su-27SK even in Russian sources, howeer they never say what this does include, you are saying the J-11B is 100% built in China but what does mean 60% or 70%? why then Russia sent kits? you are speculating since the Russians never say China builds unlicense aircraft and the last remaining 90 J-11s contract was never signed specially when China still buys AL-31 and KANWA claims the J-11B has AL-31
It is not logic since the Russiasn never defined that 70% means the entire airframe and China only recieved engines and radars for the last kits, the Russians said they send kits for all 105 the J-11s, in fact it can mean the 70% part of the airframe is build in China and the rest including the engines avionics and remaining part of the Su-27SK airframe is built in Russia since Russia always sent kits
The whole point is 70% can mean several things and does not mean the entire airframe is built in China, it can mean simply not all the aircraft is built in China and for sure it means China recieves 30% of a Su-27 from Russia
we don’t receive kits anymore. So, I don’t know what you are trying to say here. We don’t want N-001 anymore, so you are just continually reminiscing back in the old days. Again, why would they need to send J-11B to CFTE and test it as long as they did, if it did not contain all the changes we mentioned? If the Russians already finished all the testing on the radar + such, China doesn’t need to build J-11B prototypes and then test them for a couple of years.
tphuangReally?! I wild guess to stay polite. A well kept AL-31F will last the life-time of a Flanker. Shipping engines to Russia to restore that for a new lease of life takes some month. The former GDR had that capability at all and something similar is to be exspected from China too. Otherwise the technology has not catched-up all fields of technology. None will surprised about that, the numerous areas in mind, which have to be transformed up to modern technology in the last two decades. It is like Formula 1, none will wait for you and all money will not buy the expertise in need for that.
In western AFs the ratio of engines per fuselage is ~1,1-1 and in eastern AFs it was not much higher.
So the 180 engines are good for 80 Flankers or J**, whatever you like to name it.
After the US boycott, that were the Russian experts, who allowed China to persue their targets. In some areas the Chinese may be able to cut some corners, when in others they have to pay the related delays.
The Indians have their painfull experiences with the Kaveri, which looks so promising on paper. China will not be an exception from that rules in several areas as life teaches.
None of the al-31s we got ever lasted that long. The service life have been in 3 digits for most of the engines we got. If you consider some of these flankers probably fly 200 hours a year with different pilots, you will need to change every 4 or 5 years.
I don’t really care what happens with India and Kaveri. But WS-10A is doing well enough that J-10 is now going to be strictly relying on WS-10A and same with J-11B. And the J-10 procurement numbers are far higher than that of J-11B.
In fact, even WS-13A is only about a year from certification looking at what stage of testing it is on right now and the upgraded WS-10 with TVC has already completed high altitude testing a while back.d
But just of note though, I personally think J-11B is still by no means China’s ideal flanker. Simply because it’s role in PLAAF is too similar to that of J-10 and J-10 is always going to be preferred over J-11B in A2A roles. I think you might see a maximum of 3 regiments of J-11B coming out, before they switch to the much talked about J-11BS series, which is what China really expects out of a aircraft of this range/payload class.
tphuangaccording to my sources. The last J-7G orders have already been delivered. If there is any more production, it will be for export orders.
tphuangTP Huang, the article mentions a MKI Mk4, any more details ?
I believe the exact translation is
“another 40 su-30mki were ordered at 40 million each. The weapon included and price tag is different from previous orders, which points to higher standard. This is possibly su-30mki mk3 standard or possibly just named as mk4.”
tphuangThe Kanwa articles mentions the J-11B has Al-31s, the Russian articles is not an opinion it is a fact.
lol, you still don’t get it do you? J-11B by definition means all indigenous. If it’s not all indigenous, it can only be considered an interim class. Russians don’t know facts on Chinese side, they only know facts on their own side. Which means they would know whether they partcipated in J-11B or not, but they wouldn’t know exactly what’s going on J-11B.
You have to use logic, why China needs Al-31s to replace engines? number one, it is simple it is better fit Russian engines because number one these have been proven to be reliable, are the original engines fitted to the Su-27 and all Flanker variants, the vast majority of speculations specially the ones with lot of glamour claim that China is building J-11s like pancakes, fitting WS-10s very easily and claiming the J-11B is a superFlanker.
AL-31 reliable? lol, we have to keep on making 180 engine orders like this just to replace those unreliable engines we get from Russia.
China is not building J-11 like pancakes, less than 20 a year is nothing.
Some say it is not even a Su-27 but an original Chinese design however it is more logic to think fitting the WS-10 is not going to be an easy task
In fact i have read in russian reports that claim the J-10 had some structural troubles throughtout its design development history, when they modified the original LAVI airframe and made it a J-10 fitting a new inlet and a new engine, they claim that the J-10 has a compromised inlet far from the perfect airframe structure.
That’s exactly why they’ve tested it out at CFTE for so long. If there is no structural changes needed to accommodate it, why would they have produced that many prototypes and tested it out for so long?
All the Russian webpages i have read always talked about the J-11 as a Su-27 license built in China and the Kanwa article simply is claiming the Chinese basicly are going to fit avionics to the Flanker J-11B variant to what is basicly a modified russian kit.
Russian pages are wrong. As seen in the recent JDW article, the change is far than just a modified Russian kit.
The Russian are aware the chinese fitted a WS-10 to a J-11, however at least from what you can read and search in YANDEX, MAIL.RU and RAMBLER or even google or Yahoo there is very scant information in the Russian language about the J-11B and i mean ROSOBORONEXPORT or TASS do not offer a lot of webpages about it, if you look for that information the search will yield few results and at least for me has not been easy but nevertheless in the russian language reports i have found there is almost no information about the J-11B and there is nothing that claims China is building unlicense Flankers or even more than 105 kits
How can they have information if they are not involved in the process?
in fact see that this is what the official Salyut webpage says
Контракты на поставку в Китай 180 двигателей АЛ-31Ф (100 из них закреплено за ММПП “Салют” и 80 за Уфимским моторостроительным произодственным объединением, – “ИФ-АВН”) и 100 двигателей АЛ-31ФН были заключены “Рособорнэкспортом” в 2005 году. Их суммарная стоимость оценивается экспертами в сумму
They mention China bought 100 AL-31FN for the J-10s and 180 AL-31F, they even go as far as saying they want to buy the latest AL-31FM1
source
http://www.salut.ru/ViewTopic.php?Id=336
so what? we all know about the orders. Those 180 are for replacing the AL-31s on the Russian flankers we previously purchased.
tphuangLOl yes, another mediocre chinese frigate. The F-22p (milgem is not ready yet but is better equipped corvette) itself will take till 2013. When exactly will 054 come to PN?
another mediocre chinese frigate? You obviously have zero clue what you are talking about. Why don’t you explain to me how great this Milgem is?
Pakistan has already started discussion with China on 054 series according to kanwa, but the question is whether China will sell it at this stage.
tphuangIf you mean loans then yes. I suppose it means they will look to procure more ships from china after F-22p’s start arriving. Maybe after 2010 a few miligem corvettes.
lol, you know anything about 054A? Milgem? Not in the same class. One is a frigate, one isn’t.
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