tphuangCrobato
That is totally unaccurate, they say this 180 ??-31? ??? ?????? ???????????? ?????? ?????????? ?? ???????????? ???? ??-27 ??? ?????, they say very clearly 180 AL-31Fs for the Chinesese air force Su-27s so at no moment they are mixing the engines.
outdate ? no it is not outdated because that report is from TASS and from the Zhuhai air show 2006 so it is only 7 months old and it says this year China will recieve them
????????? ????????? ?? ???????? ? 2007 ????”, – ?????? ???????.Why you do not say the truth? the truth is China still buys Russian equipment and the Sukhoi Su-27s and Su-30s stiil recieve AL-31, i see nothing special in that.
The KANWA article says the J-11B still is powered by Al-31s and Salyut says China bought 180 AL-31s..
You are saying also a lie trying to cover for your speculations, the Russias do release information and they say how much they sell specially an article as the Su-27 that is an aging and incresingly obsolecent fighter.
you have to recognize the difference between opinion and fact in a kanwa article. The part about 180 AL-31 is an opinion. He thinks they will be using AL-31, but the reality is that J-11B by definition uses WS-10A. Those AL-31 are for replacements. Even certain Russian sources translated on royfc corroborates to this. The other stuff is clearly what he got out of Sukhoi. That’s a fact that sukhoi told him.
Hey Nick, I think what hallo mentionned was all that article mentionned on MKI.
tphuangSo has the deal been called off?? Somehow I don’t see PN going with all chinese surface ships.
imo, PN can’t get the same value on surface ships from anyone else. But obviously, if they can get OHPs for free, that’s a pretty good offer too.
tphuangWhatever happened to the J-7MF project that would have added a J-10 style intake and a BVR capability?
I think JF-17 is proceeding welll enough and CAC figured they only need one export project, since most of their resources are toward improving J-10 and other more important work.
tphuangalright, if you can read this, (we can get other Chinese readers to coroborate on this) this is from Kanwa’s previous contacts with sukhoi. This is from the latest edition of kanwa
more specifically the second picture, where kanwa is surprised that sukhoi has o clue how many J-11Bs are getting produced and cannot possibly get anything out of this.
tphuangMan do you read russian? they are talking about the Russian products, and also refering to the fact the Chinese market has been saturated in terms of some weaposn systems, buy the way who is selling weapons to China besides Russia and israel?
why would china need to buy any weapons in a couple of years? Even now, the only place they need to import is large transport planes and carrier fighters. Chinese market is far from saturated, it is still getting a large amount of 4th generation fighters and new ships every year. Russians are not getting orders, because the proposed exports are not meeting the requirements, that’s all.
tphuanghere is another article of February 2007, look what they say
Тенденции закупок после 2004 года говорят об определенном насыщении китайского рынка: Китай закупил 280 истребителей, 4 эсминца, 12 подводных лодок, 28 дивизионов С-300, 27 ЗРС “Тор-М1”, и сейчас весь этот объем “переваривается”, НОАК учится грамотно эксплуатировать и применять эти ВВТ.
after 2004 the chinese purchasing trends showed a specific saturation of the Chinese market; however China has bought up 280 fighters, 4 destroyers, 12 submarines, 28 battalions of S-300, 27 ZRS “Thor-M1”, and now this entire volume “is overcooked”, PLA learns competently to exploit and to use these type WEAPONS AND MILITARY EQUIPMENT.
http://www.interfax.ru/r/B/exclusive/260.html?menu=8&id_issue=11670270
See they say 280 fighters and the are including J-11s/Su-27SK and Su-30MKKs fighters either built in China or buy directly from Russia
that’s total bs, China is continuously purchasing newer and more advanced systems, they are just not Russian made that’s all. You know what the PLAN crews say about Sov? They like using it better than Sov than 052B/C, because the combat system on it is low tech like what they are used to in older PLAN ships. So, they need to absorb?
tphuangI didn’t realize they were far along enough in development to export the missile at this point.
Guess you learn something new everyday……
Just that we’ve seen enough PL-12 hanging on J-10s/J-11B and J-8F to believe that they are already widely deployed in PLA. That’s the one good thing about having the capability to produce AAMs in your own country, you don’t really have to worry about running out of them in combat.
tphuangwhy do you keep on posting these outdated Russian articles. Do you have an idea of how many of these articles Internet warriors like yourself find and are just complete junk? Why don’t you post some of those Russian articles on J-10 which are completely incorrect?
Russia and China are old partners in the sphere of military technical collaboration. However, according to Boris Aleshin, “at this moment in time there is a basis for wide collaboration between China and Russia precisely in the region of civil aviation, furthermore, now is very good time in order to create a third world center of aircraft construction composed by China and Russia, together with Europe and USA”. On the basis of this, the Russian side proposed to China her participation in joint projects for the creation of large airliners – civil and transport. “this will be the wide-body aircraft capacity from 275 to 350 places, on basis of which then will be created its transport version”, emphasized B.Aleshin.
see, another example of Russian trying to get China to pay up for its projects. Do you think China is so stupid that it’s going to build civilian aircrafts with the Russians?
This clearly states that for first three years Shengyang built 6 or 7 J-11s/Su-27SKs a year and that changed in 2002 with a rate or production of 15 aircraft a year, it also says that 100 Russian technicians supervised the quality control in the Shengyang aircraft manufacturing facility, so as you can see Crobato, the Russians are aware where the J-11s are built and are in the aircraft manufacturing plant supervising things for Sukhoi
that was back in 2002 when they actually needed the Russians.
In the J-11/Su-27SK deal the only legal looser will be Lyulka since the WS-10 can be a perfect replacement for the AL-31s and does not break any license since the WS-10 can become main spare engine for Chinese Su-27s
spare engine? What the heck are you talking about? If J-11 doesn’t use WS-10A, it’s not J-11B. The definition of J-11B is that it uses only domestic suppliers.
tphuangI don’t know the true answer to your question, but if I had to guess, I’d say at the moment only the PL-11 would be available. The PL-12 might follow at a later date, but I’d assume the PLAAF/PLAN want to get the weapon into their inventories first and then export sales can follow.
Just my thoughts though.
SD-10 is definitely available for export, it’s an export missile after all. I think as of now, PL-12 inventory is not a big problem.
tphuangIs it a violation of copyrights? 😮 😮 😮 If so, I’ll remove it immediately! I actually got it via CDF.
not at all, I was just shocked that gordonblade got my post so fast and then you got his so fast too. I posted before I made this phone call and after the phone call, it came on here, lol.
tphuangYes and it did happen, China after the kit 110 was recieved refused to build more Su-27s, also China had to buy Su-30MKKs, Russia did not allow China to build better versions than the Su-27SK that is the reasons they had to buy all those 170 Flankers directly from Russia.
What the heck are you talking about? J-11B is a far better flanker than sk, ubk or mkk. China stopped building J-11A, because the cost/performance ratio for them is really really low.
And contrary to you i do not need KANWA to know what the Russians say, i can read russians articles and news;)
This is from this year, rather than 2006. Russians have confirmed that despite their interest to join in the project, they’ve been denied. Do you understand? If each J-11B costs $40 billion, SAC is not going to get a single order from PLAAF.
tphuangNice! Thanx Pinko. Any new pics of the AVEN?? I can remember some old ones, including one with the Former President playing around with the joystick! 😀
PS: ———————————————-
I utterly can’t believe this, something I post on SDF gets reposted on AFM in like 45 minutes.
tphuangEverybody is speakings about SPY-1, Empar, Apar etc., but what about this soviet/ russian senzors used on many warships? 😎
There are many versions.
1. Base Fregat family:
MR-710M Fregat-M (NATO Top Steer) – „main“ bigger cylindrical antenna FRESCAN type with electronic scanning in elevation (like USN type SPS-26 and early SPS-39), other is standard mechanically scanned antenna.
Used on
– Slava, Marshal Ustinov (Project 1164)
– Kijev, Minsk, Novorossijsk (Project 1143, 1143.3)
– Kirov, Frunze (Project 1144, 1144.2)
– first 3 Sovs (Project 956)
– Provorny (Project 61E)MR-710M-1 Fregat-M1 (Plate Steer) – main FRESCAN antenna is changed to plannar array type (like late SPS-39, SPS-42, SPS-48 and SPS-52), the other was left unchanged
Used on:
– on 4th and 5th ships of Projekt 956
– Baku (Project 1143.4)MR-750 Fregat-M2 (Top Plate) – also smaller antena is FRESCAN plannar array, but it is in different angle than main one
Used on:
– Chervona Ukraina, Admiral Lobov (Project 1164.1)
– Kalinin, Petr Velikyi (Project 1144.2)
– from the 6th vessel of Project 956, 956A
– from the 3rd vessel of Project 1155 (here sometimes described as Fregat MA :confused: )Fregat-M2EM – looks like Fregat M-2, on advertisement materials shown on VMF destroyer Nastoychivy (Fregat M-2M??),
E-band, range 300 km, fighter sized target 230 km, missile 50 km
Used:
– Talwar (Project 1135.6)
– possibly PLAN Project 956E and 956EM? :confused:2. Fregat MA/ MAE family :
MR-760 Fregat-MA (Top Plate) with two plannar array antennas
Used on
– Admiral Chabanenko (Project 11551)
– Admiral Kuznecov (Project 1143.5)
– sometimes noted also on Project 1155 – see above :confused:
– from 3rd vessel of Project 11351
– Project 11352
– Project 1154Fregat MA-1 (Half Plate) with single plannar array antenna
used on Project 1124MUMR-755 (Half Plate) used on Delhi class has only „main“ antenna, Fregat MAE-1??? :confused:
Export MAE, MAE-1, MAE-2, MAE-4k – with single antenna
Export MAE-3 and MAE-5 – with two antennas again, specs of MAE-5 looks exactly like specs of M2EM
E/H-band, range 150- 300 km, fighter sized target 58-230 km, missile 17-50 km
– used maybe PLAN Projekt 956E and 956EM? :confused:3. Fregat N family:
N and MA-N with two antennas, the only visible difference from specs is that these are dual-band radars (E and H bands) while previous were single band radar (E or H depending on version
E + H band, range 300 km, fighter sized target 165-250 km, missile 57-86 km
Used: ??? :confused:
well, I don’t think it should be compared to those radar that you mentionned, since it’s more of a volume search radar.
tphuangCrobato
Russian Sources and even western books do not claim what you are claiming, any aircraft manufacture needs to make money or die for sukhoi a batch of 30 or 40 J-11Bs represents huge losses, same for Lyulka, as huitong claims and Boris Aleshin says, cooperation and respect of the license are realities for both Russia and China in the J-11B program.
What you are trying to imply is Shengyang has built J-11Bs without the consent of Sukhoi, the J-11 is not a Chinese design, it is a Su-27, China does not posses the right to build more than what it is stipulated and allowed by the contract and that means only when money is paid.
If China did not sign a further contract when they halted the deliveries of kits saying we do not want more Su-27 this also means they can not build Su-27 by their own without Sukhoi`s and Russia`s consent
The Su-27Sk/J-11 is a USD $30-$35 million product, a batch of 30 is close to a billion dollar enterprise, grasp it Crobato the Russians are not stupid to let China build them, and China has not build them China has kept its word, China is modifying not building, if not the Russian press already would had reported.
There is no evidence as you claim in fact Russia forced China to buy Su-30MKKs because they did not allow them to build them, it was cheaper for China buy them than build them that forced China to limit the J-11 assembly to only 110 aircraft;)
if you ask huitong now, he will tell you otherwise. As shown in his actively updated website. I have recent articles of interviews between kanwa and his Russian sources which show that they are compeletely shut out of J-11B project.
Get it through your head, if China has to pay $30 million for each J-11 to the Russians and then the additional cost of probably $25 million for flyaway cost (+ the cost of developing the plane), that would be over $50 million. As it stands, J-11B offer a lower cost/performance ratio compared to J-10 even assuming everything is built in China. If PLA has to pay more than $40 million for a J-11B, IT WILL NEVER BUILD ANOTHER FLANKER.
tphuangPlease understand this very well China and Russia are not going to go to war with each other, that is not in the interest of both nations, the Chinese as well as the Russians are civilized people who understand talks and negociations are the best way to solve disputes, niether each one of these two parties will geopardize their economic relation because both have economic needs and need each other, therefore they have talks about the J-11B as as Boris Aleshin reported to interfax in the Zhuhai 2006 international airshow
Once you get that you will understand both nuclear powers know those economic and political disagreements such as the Sukhoi contract have to be solved through political negociations.
so what the heck were you talking about threatening militarily and economically?
Bottom line is that Sukhoi will want to join the project, China will be polite about it, but in the end, it’s not going to allow below-par and more expensive Russian subcomponents to get on J-11B.
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